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Being frugal is for the rich

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Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#71

Post by AstralStorm »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #53
bsder wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the capitalist system with a labor market as tight as we’ve ever seen it this is addressed by getting another job for more money. Is it tight? I see very few occupations with rising wages. That's the REAL test for a tight labor market. Let me be anecdotal for a moment ... I was at a conference recently where the companies had a panel session complaining about getting more people into the business. Unlike most so…

Wages are rising at the highest rate since 2009: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/02/582641530... . And black unemployment is at historic lows a well.

Rates do not matter unless they are over big time scales. You have conveniently picked a year just past the banking crisis...

Does the absolute inflation and purchasing power adjusted value even match 90s?

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#72

Post by xboxnolifes »

conradev wrote: post #67
aschearer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but are people like the ones in this article or MMM seriously advocating that their philosophy will solve poverty? It's always struck me as middle or even upper middle class people revolting against over consumption and debt. Insofar as that's the case it seems like a positive development. And I don't see why we can't do two things at once, address inequality and poverty and reform out-of-control consumerism.

> Sure, but are people like the ones in this article or MMM seriously advocating that their philosophy will solve poverty? It sure looks like that to me: "My Courses to Help You Make More Money" - https://millennialmoneyman.com

MMM isn't millennial money man, it's Mister Money Mustache.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#73

Post by pitaj »

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #54

The word missing from this discussion is "structural" - there are deep structural changes to how the job market and economy now works that limit the economic prospects of millennials (as a group) in ways that can't readily be overcome with thriftiness and hard work. Here's an excerpt of the article that really clarified this for me: "Thirty years ago, she says, you could walk into any hotel in America and everyone in…

The specific example you bring up seems to be a result of increased liability on the employer for employees. Hotels etc would rather contractors carry those liabilities, especially I imagine when it comes to possibly illegal immigrants.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#74

Post by m_mueller »

falcolas wrote: post #45
vorpalhex wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> continuing to build a world where they are more and more necessary My grandmother can still, to this day, recount living in an apartment with no furniture except a mattress, with my grandfather who was employed as an engineer in New York. It took, by her estimate, about two years to have enough furniture before she was willing to invite over any sorts of company. Today you can furnish an apartment reasonably with a…

So, your proof that decline is a myth is that you can buy cheap, moderate quality, mass-manufactured furniture that didn't exist in your grandparents age? Something seems awry there.

I think GP does have a point while missing the bigger picture. Yes, low to average income people can today afford more stuff to make their life a bit better. But they also can‘t afford an apartment close to work (loosing anywhere from 2 to 5 hours of their day they cannot spend e.g. with their kids) and they cannot afford college tuition. That‘s what‘s creating perpetual poverty, i.e. low social mobility, which is IMO one of the most important aspects of a fully developed nation.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#75

Post by vorpalhex »

falcolas wrote: post #45
vorpalhex wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> continuing to build a world where they are more and more necessary My grandmother can still, to this day, recount living in an apartment with no furniture except a mattress, with my grandfather who was employed as an engineer in New York. It took, by her estimate, about two years to have enough furniture before she was willing to invite over any sorts of company. Today you can furnish an apartment reasonably with a…

So, your proof that decline is a myth is that you can buy cheap, moderate quality, mass-manufactured furniture that didn't exist in your grandparents age? Something seems awry there.

My grandmother couldn't afford a chair. Most people today have reasonably furnished apartments, smartphones, some kind of vaguely functional computer with (low speed) internet access, and probably a car.

Food went from being very expensive (people actually died of starvation not that long ago!) to being so cheap that obesity is a major epidemic among the poor.

Since 1940, the percent of the US with a high school degree went from What is your argument that the economy is in decline? That you don't magically get a two story house with a yard, a new car, and the ability to support a family of four? That has never once been the case in US history. It's a great myth in the past that the 1950s were somehow a magical time when everyone had a house and the income for a family, but it's that - a myth.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#76

Post by AstralStorm »

azernik wrote: post #61
aschearer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but are people like the ones in this article or MMM seriously advocating that their philosophy will solve poverty? It's always struck me as middle or even upper middle class people revolting against over consumption and debt. Insofar as that's the case it seems like a positive development. And I don't see why we can't do two things at once, address inequality and poverty and reform out-of-control consumerism.

I've heard this frequently in right-wing circles; see e.g. the complaints about people on welfare having (shock!) smartphones.

People in Sudan have too. An older smartphone can be had for very little nowadays. As can be a budget model.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#77

Post by conradev »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #72
conradev wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, but are people like the ones in this article or MMM seriously advocating that their philosophy will solve poverty? It sure looks like that to me: "My Courses to Help You Make More Money" - https://millennialmoneyman.com

MMM isn't millennial money man, it's Mister Money Mustache.

ah, well that link was one of the ones referenced in the article.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#78

Post by qntty »

vorpalhex wrote: post #32
qntty wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

> continuing to build a world where they are more and more necessary My grandmother can still, to this day, recount living in an apartment with no furniture except a mattress, with my grandfather who was employed as an engineer in New York. It took, by her estimate, about two years to have enough furniture before she was willing to invite over any sorts of company. Today you can furnish an apartment reasonably with a…

Nobody's denying that the world has improved. The relevant question is "where are we relative to where we could be, given all that we have to work with?" One answer, in the opinion of many informed people, is that we (Americans) haven't done nearly as much with what we have as we could have potentially done.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#79

Post by CocaKoala »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #16
qntty wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

Most young people do need to be more thoughtful about their money, though. And the economy as a whole is, by multiple different metrics, the best it’s ever been. It’s just that this greatness needs to be spread a bit wider. In the capitalist system with a labor market as tight as we’ve ever seen it this is addressed by getting another job for more money. Now is a good time to do it. You are responsible for your own s…

"The economy is doing great, all you need to do to flourish is work a second job in addition to your first one!"

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#80

Post by bluetomcat »

Living in Eastern Europe, I was able to witness the streamlined shift to a Western consumerist lifestyle in a mere 15 to 20 years. There was a saying in communist Bulgaria, "having money doesn't mean that there is anything you can spend it on". This encouraged people to save and have longer-term goals. Fast forward to today, everyday spending opportunities are beyond every corner, and people prove that they are successful in life with outward and vulgar consumerism which was probably a 70s thing in the West.
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