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The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

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Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#71

Post by onezerozeroone »

someone7x wrote: post #19

> I see a workplace that has become shockingly inhumane. A thousand times this. Very few of the lessons my parents taught me apply in the corporate world. Be honest and straight with people, assume good intent, take responsibility, etc. All that behavior will do is paint you as naive. Sure there's room for honesty and responsibility, but only when used appropriately (strategically). Strikes me as acutely inhumane eve…

Not really the company's fault here. Policies like this exist because candidates have and will sue the shit out of you for any flimsy accusation of discrimination they can cobble together.

Companies didn't create these policies arbitrarily and unprovoked. They became necessary because of some people who took advantage of the legal system to get settlements. It's in the company's best interest to protect itself from frivolous lawsuits, so it's better to be safe than sorry.

Which isn't to say that there aren't people who actually are discriminated against, but in this example it's not a company "discarding" someone as much as it is covering its bases.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#72

Post by simonebrunozzi »

jriot wrote: post #61
mathattack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are liability reasons for not giving feedback. If I’ve had a good connection then I will give informal feedback on the phone only.

Everything appears to be a liability these days - that is the problem.

That is, in the US. I live in San Francisco, but I'm from Italy and have worked (and hired, and fired) people there in the past. I can assure you that all this "legal wall" around everything doesn't really exist in Italy, or at least it's vastly mitigated.

As a consequence, I was able to provide detailed feedback every time I rejected a candidate, for example, without even thinking of the legal consequences.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#73

Post by 1787 »

derefr wrote: post #11
dfsdfdsfds wrote: post #2

It makes it sound as if work was more healthy in the past. Was it? When? I know hunter gatherer times were supposed to be paradise, but anything since then? Farming sounds rather arduous. Or what about mining, or working in factories where safety measures have not yet been invented?

The present population of workers the article is referring to with "work culture" are white collar workers. Comparing like to like, these wouldn't be people working in factories or mining. The equivalent jobs in previous eras would be those of priests, monks, and scribes; of surveyors, navigators, and architects; of military officers; and of nobles tinkering around in the sciences. Compare the working conditions of t…

I wouldn't be surprised if priests or monks had quite long work hours; imagine the RSI one might get from copying out whole books by hand.

You could reframe as underemployment a lot of the extent to which jobs in the past were less stressful (if they actually were). Trading stress for fantastic material wealth is a highly popular option afforded by technology.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#74

Post by btilly »

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #39
mathattack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are liability reasons for not giving feedback. If I’ve had a good connection then I will give informal feedback on the phone only.

Do you mean liability as in liability for discriminatory hiring practices by providing feedback?

No.

Liability as in the more that you have said, the more likely it is that a lawsuit will be filed based on a misunderstanding of what you did say.

It doesn't matter how unlikely the lawsuit is to win on the merits. Fighting in court and discovery both bring costs and distractions that institutions would prefer to avoid.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#75

Post by osrec »

tzakrajs wrote: post #55
osrec wrote: post #24

Work has become a strange thing. I see people foregoing their best years stuck in an office, in the hope they can enjoy their later years. What utter nonsense. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but society has got something very wrong, as our work culture seems to surgically remove the wonder and enjoyment from our days. Hardly surprising that it drives people to ill health. Glad I broke out of that cycle a long…

Please tell us more. How does the stress compare? How does the pay compare?

Stress is non-existent now (apart from worrying about family etc). Pay was 0 for the first 3 months - that was scary, but I had some savings and I had an idea I was happy to go along with. My family was against me, but eventually got on board (after a year!). Now pay is an order of magnitude larger than my best salary as an investment banker (1.5 years later). My focus is now technology - it's my passion and I'm good at it. My clients still come primarily from finance, but now have one in healthcare too. I'm also starting to put together a few products I want to sell. Trying to grow organically, with a small team. I don't really want a big team; just a small team of really high quality people that can turn their hand to any task. Overall it's been enjoyable, but the start was tricky (especially because everyone around me thought I'd fail and end up back in a similar investment banking job). It's not for everyone, but at the time, I was so unhappy within myself, that I didn't really have another option.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#76

Post by osrec »

diab0lic wrote: post #46
derwiki wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a job now? If so how is it better?

Judging from his profile he consults now: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=osrec

Yes, I have a consulting company now. Also starting to put together a few interesting products that my clients may be interested in.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#77

Post by calvinbhai »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #72
jriot wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything appears to be a liability these days - that is the problem.

That is, in the US. I live in San Francisco, but I'm from Italy and have worked (and hired, and fired) people there in the past. I can assure you that all this "legal wall" around everything doesn't really exist in Italy, or at least it's vastly mitigated. As a consequence, I was able to provide detailed feedback every time I rejected a candidate, for example, without even thinking of the legal consequences.

I have had this experience with a few companies I interviewed with in EU, where I got feedback after rejection.

It feels so pleasant, yet strange, after having taken it for granted that I'll just get a templated rejection letter based on interview experiences in the US.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#78

Post by jriot »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #72
jriot wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything appears to be a liability these days - that is the problem.

That is, in the US. I live in San Francisco, but I'm from Italy and have worked (and hired, and fired) people there in the past. I can assure you that all this "legal wall" around everything doesn't really exist in Italy, or at least it's vastly mitigated. As a consequence, I was able to provide detailed feedback every time I rejected a candidate, for example, without even thinking of the legal consequences.

Agree this is a US problem and I don't understand why.

It doesn't hurt me why you didn't select me.

You didn't think I would fit in culturally. Ok, no worries.

You didn't think I knew enough of what you wanted to know. Ok, no worries.

You didn't like the way I was dressed. Ok, no worries.

You weren't really hiring but were just testing the waters. Ok, probably won't apply again but no worries.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#79

Post by Thriptic »

onezerozeroone wrote: post #71
someone7x wrote: post #19

> I see a workplace that has become shockingly inhumane. A thousand times this. Very few of the lessons my parents taught me apply in the corporate world. Be honest and straight with people, assume good intent, take responsibility, etc. All that behavior will do is paint you as naive. Sure there's room for honesty and responsibility, but only when used appropriately (strategically). Strikes me as acutely inhumane eve…

Not really the company's fault here. Policies like this exist because candidates have and will sue the shit out of you for any flimsy accusation of discrimination they can cobble together. Companies didn't create these policies arbitrarily and unprovoked. They became necessary because of some people who took advantage of the legal system to get settlements. It's in the company's best interest to protect itself from f…

This goes for firing too. I've seen people who were categorically under performing try to bring lawsuits claiming discrimination upon firing many times.

Re: The health care toll today’s work culture exacts on employees

#80

Post by tboyd47 »

tj-teej wrote: post #59
cyberpunk0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not take shit from your boss" = "get fired by boss for 'insubordination' "

I disagree, from most of my experience, toxic managers take advantage of the people they feel they CAN take advantage of. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's spiteful managers like you're hinting at, but from my experience at two major tech companies, a healthy two-way respect is earned by pushing back on management when they're out of line, as I think they know a lot of the time that they're being out of line but t…

That's what I'm getting at. In my own experience, unhandled grudges against people end up being a major source of stress. Some people (my past self included) don't know how to stand up for themselves at a company. It's a combination of knowing what lines people can't cross with you, and what sorts of authority different people at work can have over you, because when someone crosses a line, how you correct them will differ according to their relation to you. For example, if a manager is rude to you, you can often excuse yourself but can't completely drop the issue, whereas, if a fellow collaborator is rude, sometimes you can just stop dealing with them altogether. Sometimes just looking perturbed without saying anything is enough to make people change how they deal with you. A lot of developers I see don't pay any attention to these things and nurse grudges against people for entire years.
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