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How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

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Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#71

Post by koala_man »

maxxxxx wrote: post #63
koala_man wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this problem as well. The same trivial shell scripting problems came up over and over. My solution was to write a static analysis tool (ShellCheck) that would recognize them automatically and with enough confidence would even auto-answer. It's gotten way more use than I ever expected. Haven't made much progress on the plaintext question problem though. Some day!

Cool! It's also written in Haskell. I always wanted to take a closer look at that language and this project seems just about the right size!

Just be aware that this was my first proglang project as well as my first Haskell project.

What worked well was unit testing and Haskell. What didn't work as well was inventing adhoc solutions instead of standard compiler techniques like DFA/CFG, and not writing more and better DSLs (in the form of monadic APIs) since they're cheap and convenient.

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#72

Post by blub »

jamesgeck0 wrote: post #24
blub wrote: post #19

What a pretentious piece of writing, I can't stand this kind of goody two-shoes attitude. It's ok to be human and get upset every now and then. Heck, you might even take it out on someone. Apologise and move on, you don't have to become a buddhist and take the three breath vow - it's useless and unhealthy.

What is unhealthy about deciding to pause before responding harshly to someone?

That's not what's being discussed... the author gets themselves into situations that can easily turn irritating, like hanging out on StackOverflow or answering noob questions on chat. The solution is for them to take time out from that, not become a zen monk.

In general it's a valuable skill to have self control, but it doesn't work perfectly, so it's best to avoid having to exercise it all the time and pressuring oneself to always react "correctly" through self-guilt.

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#73

Post by kstenerud »

derf_ wrote: post #57
cosban wrote: post #3

I'm willing to admit that maybe I'm not the best at social interaction. I think this article is on point though. I am unable to count the number of times I've gone to some random project community for assistance dealing with whatever problem I was having at the time to be met with someone telling me that what I'm doing is insane and shouldn't be done in the first place. It's taught me that I should just use these out…

I mostly work on audio and video codec projects. You would not believe the number of people in this domain who come to us trying to do something insane that shouldn't be done in the first place. Of course, telling them that and dismissing them isn't helpful. But pretty much all you can do is ask, "Why are you trying to do that?" and work backwards. With luck you can set them back on the path towards success. But a lo…

So then say "Do x, y, and z. But this is usually the wrong approach. Tell me what you're trying to do."

Don't be their babysitter. There's nothing more infuriating than "I know how, but I'm not going to tell you for your own good."

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#74

Post by expertentipp »

Not only on the web but it’s an issue in workplaces as well. FPS style humiliation, and it’s not about knowing the basics but when learning the project or questioning some quirks or weird architectural decisions (so easy to trigger someone right here). Listen, the world is small, professional environment is not an online game, and your experience in a particular project can be surprisingly worthless during the next job search.

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#75

Post by dozzie »

kstenerud wrote: post #73
derf_ wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly work on audio and video codec projects. You would not believe the number of people in this domain who come to us trying to do something insane that shouldn't be done in the first place. Of course, telling them that and dismissing them isn't helpful. But pretty much all you can do is ask, "Why are you trying to do that?" and work backwards. With luck you can set them back on the path towards success. But a lo…

So then say "Do x, y, and z. But this is usually the wrong approach. Tell me what you're trying to do." Don't be their babysitter. There's nothing more infuriating than "I know how, but I'm not going to tell you for your own good."

> So then say "Do x, y, and z. But this is usually the wrong approach. Tell me what you're trying to do."

And never hear from them again, but later hit the shitty code you have just helped to producfe.

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#76

Post by s_m_t »

blub wrote: post #22
gnode wrote: post #4

I wonder if the underlying reason for this emotional response is guilt which goes hand-in-hand with altruism. In the case of the Santa and the homeless man, the Santa didn't want to give the man $5, but did so presumably out of guilt, then felt angry. In the case of the author getting angry about low-value questions, I wonder if that's because of a guilty feeling that they must answer. Personally, I can't really empa…

The author is completely missing the point of his own feelings: his unconscious mind is telling him to stop wasting time answering questions and do something more useful. But of course, the conscious mind knows better, one must behave nicely, be zen, suppress their feelings, etc. And 10 years later you're visiting a psychologist to deal with your burn out.

I don't even care if this is arm chair psychology, from a literary standpoint this really ties the piece together. The Santa example doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#77

Post by WalterGR »

dozzie wrote: post #75
kstenerud wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then say "Do x, y, and z. But this is usually the wrong approach. Tell me what you're trying to do." Don't be their babysitter. There's nothing more infuriating than "I know how, but I'm not going to tell you for your own good."

> So then say "Do x, y, and z. But this is usually the wrong approach. Tell me what you're trying to do." And never hear from them again, but later hit the shitty code you have just helped to producfe.

If we continue a bit further down that path we come to:

Well, you never know if they're skilled or unskilled hackers, but they're probably not very skilled. Or at the least not as skilled as I am. So no matter what you tell them, they're probably going to write shitty code I helped produce. Even if they have some skill, why take that risk?

So it's better to not bother even with the initial "Why do you want to do that?" gatekeeping and to just ignore questions entirely. They're just going to screw it up anyway.

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#78

Post by Torgo »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #70
strkek wrote: post #8

[09:00] Hi. [09:16] Hey, what's up. [09:23] I have a problem, do you have some time? [09:24] Sure, what's it about? [09:27] Have you worked with X thing before? I have to do Y thing but don't know how. [09:28] So, I just googled "how to do Y thing in X thing" and got this blog entry explaining in detail, and also this other Stack Overflow answer with a very similar problem. [09:29] Sec, gonna try that. [09:35] I got…

That person lacks some pretty basic development skills. You can roll your eyes or you can teach coding 101. I actually like teaching coding 101. Not everyone has to, but I do. And I find people generally appreciate someone going back to the basics and explaining the tactics and theory behind a problem, rather than just giving the answer or the steps to find it. I just think coding is neat, and I love talking about ev…

It's good to have one or two people in your project community that are willing to help people that don't have much experience at the type of problem-solving and methodical thought that fixing code requires. I am not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to any particular project, but I'm happy to help newbies get steady footing.

Re: How to avoid humiliating newcomers: A guide for advanced developers

#80

Post by Bartweiss »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #56
strkek wrote: post #8

[09:00] Hi. [09:16] Hey, what's up. [09:23] I have a problem, do you have some time? [09:24] Sure, what's it about? [09:27] Have you worked with X thing before? I have to do Y thing but don't know how. [09:28] So, I just googled "how to do Y thing in X thing" and got this blog entry explaining in detail, and also this other Stack Overflow answer with a very similar problem. [09:29] Sec, gonna try that. [09:35] I got…

Indeed, and the first example in the article is a little like this. "What is the ticket number" roughly translates to "go search the bug tracker for me, even though I could do that just as easily (or could do with the practice)". Maybe sarcasm wasn't warranted, but at best the answer is "I don't have that to hand, and couldn't find any quicker than you could". In a real sense, someone acting like this is insulting. R…

> For the genuinely well meaning and self motivated learners, I agree we should try hard to be sympathetic and respectful.

I agree with this, but I think part of this is fighting the instinct to sarcasm or hostility even when people are looking for the easy way.

Whenever people start employing public hostility, the people who are deterred the most are the least confident and most well-intentioned people. If you're asking someone else to do your work for you, you presumably don't care much about their time and frustration. But if you're cautious and respectful and already worried about wasting people's time with dumb questions, then seeing someone who's annoyed and likely to snap at you is a huge deterrent.

"What's the ticket number" may not be a productive question, but I still winced at that answer - I can't imagine that a Slack where people are that hostile is one where people feel comfortable asking potentially 'dumb' questions and getting support. Better to stay silent, or say "that's something you can do as well as me", or politely say "their ticket queue actually has a great search feature". Calling out unjustified questions is hopefully less alienating, because it at least shows why you're annoyed, and that you wouldn't do the same to a question that's novice-level, but not rude. And if these questions are too common to handle politely, that's its own serious issue at the company.

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