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A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

nytimes.com

71–80 of 106 posts

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#71
Tiny brain: We should punish Zuckerberg for speeding! That'll show him!

Normal brain: Wait a minute. Increasing fines for the 1% can solve at most 1% of the speeding problem. Okay, the 1% number is polemical, but any solution to the problem of speeding must fall mostly on poorer people, because they are the majority.

Glowing brain: Why do we talk about speeding as a crime? Any economist would tell you that the optimal amount of speeding is nonzero, so it should be solved with a Pigovian tax equal to the negative externality. Since a rich speeding person does as much potential damage as a poor speeding person, the fine shouldn't depend on how rich you are. If you want a safety net, build a safety net, don't muck around with speeding fines.

Galactic brain: Is speeding that much of an externality though? If you go fast and cause a crash, you bear about half of the cost. If you don't cause a crash, no one bears the cost. It's not like pollution where the polluter bears a millionth of the cost. So it seems like selfish decision making, with average human level of loss aversion, should already deal with the problem of speeding. Why isn't that happening?

Buddha brain: People know the cost of a crash. Speeding happens because people misjudge the risk of a crash. So perceived risk, not cost, is the right variable to tweak if you want to fix speeding. Make enforcement of fines much more fast and certain, and you can solve speeding while lowering fines. The whole article about billionaires was a distraction from a distraction from a distraction.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#72
post #37
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just driving at legal speeds can be a risk to. It depends pn multiple fsctors not just speed.

Those risk factors have been considered by people who are qualified to design road systems. You can't just heap additional risk on without consequences. If I choose to drive wearing a blindfold that wouldn't necessarily mean there's any damage but it should definitely be a crime.

>Those risk factors have been considered by people who are qualified to design road systems.

Yes and no.

Those people usually have no role in applying the speed limits.

The max speed limits for a given type of road are given by some non-technical norms, i.e. - as an example - the Law may say that for a highway the max legal limit is 130 km/h, for a state route 90 km/h, etc.

People designing the road need to conform to those Law requirements, and - as a matter of fact - those requirements are normally exceeded (i.e. roads are usually designed in such a way that they could have from a purely technical standpoint higher speed limits).

The issue is particularly relevant where in single stretches of road there is something (a series of curves, a depression, etc.) that imposes (technically) a lower than Law mandated maximum speed for the type of road.

In these cases, if (technically) the max speed is - say - 120 Km/h (instead of 130 km/h) other factors (outside the powers or influence of the designer) will result in a much lower speed limit posted, let's say 90 Km/h.

This is done - usually - in good faith and to enhance security, but often - later - that specific stretch of road becomes a good way to make cash, as noone will suddenly reduce speed from the (allowed and legal till then) 130 km/h to 90 km/h and will go through the curves at 100-120 km/h (still within the technical limits, i.e. "safe enough" but far above the posted limit) thus being subject to fines.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#74

Tiny brain: We should punish Zuckerberg for speeding! That'll show him! Normal brain: Wait a minute. Increasing fines for the 1% can solve at most 1% of the speeding problem. Okay, the 1% number is polemical, but any solution to the problem of speeding must fall mostly on poorer people, because they are the majority. Glowing brain: Why do we talk about speeding as a crime? Any economist would tell you that the optima…

"Make enforcement of fines much more fast and certain, and you can solve speeding while lowering fines."

If "solve" means legitimize it, yes, you've solved it.

Google for "daycare fine study" and notice that adding a small but significant fine to a behaviour you wish to discourage increased that behaviour rather than decreasing it.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#75
post #63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is that most of the time something like half of people are speeding and some of the time literally everyone on the highway is speeding. The people who set the speed limit set it with the goal of causing a certain kind of psychology on the people driving, not because "past this point your car is going to lose control and kill everyone", and the law is then defined to follow the signs (which expect peopl…

"past this point your car is going to lose control and kill everyone" Actually that is one of the reasons for the speed limit being what it is. Part of the speed limit is determined by the reaction time and stopping distance of a typical driver. That's not you per se, but it has to work for everyone. While a fit young person driving a 2017 Mercedes might feel they can safely drive much faster with all the modern safe…

That is a popular fiction for why the speed is set lower than the design speed that someone young and fast would expect, but the real reason is to figure out how to make it so that the people who drive based on the feel of the road and the people who drive based on the speed limit have the mean of their distributions at the same place, minimizing the speed differential between people on the road (which is what is extremely dangerous).

https://priceonomics.com/is-every-speed-limit-too-low/

> Traffic engineers believe that the 85th percentile speed is the ideal speed limit because it leads to the least variability between driving speeds and therefore safer roads. When the speed limit is correctly set at the 85th percentile speed, the minority of drivers that do conscientiously follow speed limits are no longer driving much slower than the speed of traffic. The choice of the 85th percentile speed is a data-driven conclusion -- as noted Lt. Megge and speed limit resources like the Michigan State Police’s guide -- that has been established by the consistent findings of years of traffic studies.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#76

Tiny brain: We should punish Zuckerberg for speeding! That'll show him! Normal brain: Wait a minute. Increasing fines for the 1% can solve at most 1% of the speeding problem. Okay, the 1% number is polemical, but any solution to the problem of speeding must fall mostly on poorer people, because they are the majority. Glowing brain: Why do we talk about speeding as a crime? Any economist would tell you that the optima…

"Make enforcement of fines much more fast and certain, and you can solve speeding while lowering fines." If "solve" means legitimize it, yes, you've solved it. Google for "daycare fine study" and notice that adding a small but significant fine to a behaviour you wish to discourage increased that behaviour rather than decreasing it.

[deleted]

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#77
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a $3,000 fine for a billionaire isn't unreasonable This sounds ridiculous to me because the idea of laws, and by extension fines, is that they apply uniformly, regardless of class, gender, whatever.

The laws should obviously apply equally. Exactly for that reason, fines should not be the same for someone who earns $15/hr and $1500/hr. A fine of $150 is 10 hours of work for one person, and 6 minutes for the other. How is that equal application of the law?

The same logic (if applied consistently) would make judges give longer prison sentences to younger, healthier individuals.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#78
post #42
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about people who drive hard deliberate because they can afford the fines, in their free time?

In Australia we have a demerit point system, although technically if you have enough money you can pay to get around it.

The United States has the same thing. Get too many traffic infractions in a certain time window (a year or two, might depend on the state) and you get your license revoked.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#79
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it could be a percentage of total assets - that would be equal, no? I do think fines are stupid though. Making people sit a day through a speed awareness course seems a better punishment to me.

Better? Probably. More equal? I doubt it. “Sit a day through a speed awareness course” could cost people their job, and that’s more likely the lower paying the job is.

I've taken defensive driving to get a ticket removed from my record. You notify the state you are going to do so, then you have a certain time window (a few months) to take it. You can even take it online, which is still frustrating because you can't skip stuff.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#80
post #7

This is already true for incarceration; a billionaire and a nurse lose the same amount of time. And one's time is paid more than the other's. Speeding is a weird example though. If I'm driving I pay based on my income, but if my driver is driving he pays based on his? > In 2015, it handed a businessman a $67,000 speeding ticket for going 14 miles per hour above the limit. I just don't see how going 14 mph with zero o…

It's part pricing the risk but mostly a deterrent to behave according to rules. If the rich guy pays the same fine as the poor, it's effectively cheaper for him, so he can allow himself to break rules more often.

If he does it too much he will get his license revoked, so it still reaches a hard limit. At which point the person would either have to hire drivers, or drive illegally without a license and face harsher penalties.
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