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You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

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Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#71

Post by mrweasel »

mieseratte wrote: post #41
mrweasel wrote: post #26

The trust that Danes have towards other people is slowly eroding, and it is making us increasingly xenophobic. It's not that there aren't criminal or untrustworthy Danes, of cause there is, but it's easier to blame outsiders, like immigrants and roaming eastern European gangs. As the article points out, we're struggling to absorb outsiders. Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's co…

So, here's what I don't understand? If it causes societal trouble why let all these troublesome groups in? Does Denmark have some long history as a "nation of immigrants" like the United States does or is this some sort of self-inflicted punishment?

As others point out we did have guest works, we also had Vietnamese boat-refugees, Bosnians refugees from the Balkan wars. The thing is: there was never that many of either groups. So no, Denmark isn't a nation of immigrants, not even close.

Both left and right leaning governments have failed to implement good integration policies. The parties on the left have been to naive and assume that things would naturally work them selves out: They trusted that the people coming into the country would want to learn the language, integrate and become Danes. On the right the opposite was assume, that the policies should be to not let people feel welcome, in the hope that they would leave.

Troublesome groups are let in, because Denmark is legally required to. But the evaporation of trust in others isn't purely an immigration issue, it happens between Dane as well, and that's worse because we're not entirely sure why it's happening.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#72

Post by matt4077 »

lvh wrote: post #35
matt4077 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway's "Government Pension Fund" is NOT used to actually fund pensions. It is actually not funding anything right now, but absorbs the government's budget surplus resulting from the oil sector. As such, it's a net negative for most economic indicators currently, since Norway has chosen to defer the use of their wealth in fossil fuels.

Are you suggesting it's unusual or undesirable for a pension fund to not be paying out currently? If a country creates a sovereign wealth fund for when the proverbial and in this case literal well eventually dries up and it doesn't need to tap into that currently, and there's $200k for every citizen in that piggy bank, that seems like a pretty good thing for preventing social unrest and perhaps even promoting social…

Maybe read the comment I was replying to? They made the argument that Norway's economic success is caused by the fund. Which it is not. Because the fund is, to repeat myself, "a net negative currently, used to defer the use of the fossil fuel windfall for future times".

To more directly answer your question: the fund is the sort of level-headed strategic genius that only a sane country like Norway could pull off. Compare Alaska.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#73

Post by rsync »

makomk wrote: post #60
Eupolemos wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dane here. I think this article gets something right, pointing out trust. Another word would be "solidarity" - believing you 'owe' your fellow countryman and that you are on the same team. What's good for you is good for me. In Denmark, we pay something like 50% tax but we also get a lot of things covered by our state which other countries let the individuals get through expensive insurance. This means that if my nei…

It doesn't even require taxes to vanish into black holes, waste and corruption for this to fall apart; all it requires is that those taxes are being spent on people who aren't like us in some sense, who are too far away or too culturally different. You can see this with, for example, the griping from Californians about how unfair it is that they're forced to subsidise other states which aren't the economic success st…

"You can see this with, for example, the griping from Californians about how unfair it is that they're forced to subsidise other states which aren't the economic success story that California is."

While it is indeed true that California is a net-tax-contributor to the United States, it's fairly new that this is a point of contention or a "gripe" from Californians.

A much more prevalent complaint, in my experience, is that Californians pay the same ~50% in taxes that Danish people do, but have much, much worse public policy and infrastructure outcomes.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#74

Post by ytoi »

jahaja wrote: post #58
rayiner wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Scandinavian model is much more than just "greater spending on social programs." Sweden and Denmark outrank the U.S. in the Heritage Foundation's Economic Freedom Index: https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking . Their tax system is very flat, with the top marginal rates kicking in at just 1.2-1.6x the average income: https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-the... . The top 10% in Sweden make 25% o…

Regarding taxes: In Sweden this is a rather recent change pushed through by right-wing parties. This wasn't the case when the foundations of social-democracy was set.

What do you mean? As far as I know the major tax reform by the right-wing parties was the "work tax deduction" which makes taxes less flat. (The deduction is capped at roughly median income). Top marginal rates have been largely the same since the mid '90s.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#75

Post by titanix2 »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #45
titanix2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too little difference between working wage and welfare I’ve been on welfare in France for a few months to focus on a project. I’ve seen from the inside how the sytem disincentive attempt at working or learning. I’ll list some reason why. - You cannot get the money if you have a job or are enrolled in a formation which encourage doing nothing - Money is not huge if you have a rent, but it also come with reduction on…

> All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. On the other hand, in the Nordic countries work is thankfully not the only way to be part of society, because there are so many subsidized community centres and free or very low-c…

You are totally right about the desocialization. When having such a life, you have a lot of time but it is not aligned with the free time of most people. So you have no real choice: you either hang alone or other people on welfare.

Also, the kind of cultural activities that are subsidized is not the ones that people on welfare attend. When you have the cultural background to know why going to the library is useful or important, you likely not end being on welfare. Similarly, if you lend there because you have no skills, the free time you have that could be used for self learning will not by used as such. So I see the whole system as a kind of trap, once you lend there it is game over because you’re basically provided money to shut up but have no real and effective support to improve your situation.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#76

Post by jahaja »

ytoi wrote: post #74
jahaja wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding taxes: In Sweden this is a rather recent change pushed through by right-wing parties. This wasn't the case when the foundations of social-democracy was set.

What do you mean? As far as I know the major tax reform by the right-wing parties was the "work tax deduction" which makes taxes less flat. (The deduction is capped at roughly median income). Top marginal rates have been largely the same since the mid '90s.

Since mid '90s is "rather recent" for me in this domain. I'm talking about the significantly reduced tax burden for the wealthy and corporations due to various tax cuts and abolishments.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#77

Post by gnarbarian »

rsync wrote: post #73
makomk wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't even require taxes to vanish into black holes, waste and corruption for this to fall apart; all it requires is that those taxes are being spent on people who aren't like us in some sense, who are too far away or too culturally different. You can see this with, for example, the griping from Californians about how unfair it is that they're forced to subsidise other states which aren't the economic success st…

"You can see this with, for example, the griping from Californians about how unfair it is that they're forced to subsidise other states which aren't the economic success story that California is." While it is indeed true that California is a net-tax-contributor to the United States, it's fairly new that this is a point of contention or a "gripe" from Californians. A much more prevalent complaint, in my experience, is…

They also have the highest poverty rate in the US.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-jackson-californi...

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#78

Post by beagle3 »

lvh wrote: post #6
joncrane wrote: post #2

I've been a fan of the Scandinavian model for government for a while, and I used to be one of those guys who would say something like "in NORWAY they blah blah blah" when discussing some social/governmental in a small group. But later on I realized more deeply that Norway is a tiny fraction of the population of the USA as well as a very culturally (and let's face it, racially) homogeneous population. Similar argument…

Norway also has two giant sovereign funds, which they use to fund pensions. The oil fund alone is worth almost 200k per Norwegian. That's not an argument you can make for Denmark, but yes: Norway is doing great. All you need is a small homogeneous population and a trillion dollars.

You are making the opposite point of the one you think you are making: Norway has those trillion dollars set aside because they nationalized a lot of oil profit. The US could have done that to, and so could for that matter Venezuela.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#79

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

titanix2 wrote: post #75
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever. On the other hand, in the Nordic countries work is thankfully not the only way to be part of society, because there are so many subsidized community centres and free or very low-c…

You are totally right about the desocialization. When having such a life, you have a lot of time but it is not aligned with the free time of most people. So you have no real choice: you either hang alone or other people on welfare. Also, the kind of cultural activities that are subsidized is not the ones that people on welfare attend. When you have the cultural background to know why going to the library is useful or…

> Also, the kind of cultural activities that are subsidized is not the ones that people on welfare attend.

You would be surprised. I have met loads of people who frequent the Nordic arts scene who resorted to welfare after their local industry declined, or who are even the "professionally unemployed". Even welfare recipients can be very intellectual or cultured, and what holds them back from employment is something else. In any event, the library or high cultural spaces are not the sole community centres I refer to; in smaller communities you’ll find things like subsidized dances and hobby groups that will attract even the lowest educated and least ambitious members of a community.

I can also speak from personal experience: in my student days as a foreign student in a Nordic country, I spent a time worse than on the dole: I was outright homeless and virtually penniless for several months. I remember vividly how much that time sucked because it was a constant struggle to find a place to sleep or get a decent meal. And yet the whole time I was attending concerts, I read a huge amount from the excellent public libraries (much better than in my own country), and my command of the local language and much else improved thanks to the opportunity to freely participate in certain community groups dedicated to a common interest. I cannot imagine getting the same opportunities in the USA, as I mentioned.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#80

Post by rayiner »

Max-q wrote: post #67
Spooky23 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture drives attitude and perception. People who look, worship (or not), work and have other things alike then to cluster together and have a sort of herd mentality. In a place like the US, we have dramatically different groups of people all over the place. In Norway or Denmark, the differences are nonexistent to an American eye.

>In Norway or Denmark, the differences are nonexistent to an American eye. In Oslo, capital of Norway, 32% of the population are immigrants.

And half of those are Europeans (often other Scandinavians). In contrast, in D.C., the capital of the United States, 52% of the population is of a racial minority that (overwhelmingly) is in the U.S. only because white Americans brought their ancestors over from Africa in slavery.
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