Sure, it's a new filesystem; it's bound to have bugs. However, one pain point I've identified is that the existing tools often have no idea of how to deal with APFS. I'm currently typing this from a Mac with an APFS drive that is almost certainly experiencing filesystem corruption–I have folders that suddenly lose track of their contents and become impossible to delete ; however, existing tools such as fsck, diskutil…
MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
71–80 of 193 posts
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
My (limited) understanding of APFS is that it forgoes some integrity checks on the assumption that they have already been done by lower-level hardware. This is of course a debatable design decision, but it may indeed be unwise to use APFS on non-Apple hardware.
No, APFS must be usable on USB drives and so on. That would be a fatal design flaw.
"Explicitly not checksumming user data is a little more interesting. The APFS engineers I talked to cited strong ECC protection within Apple storage devices. Both flash SSDs and magnetic media HDDs use redundant data to detect and correct errors. The engineers contend that Apple devices basically don’t return bogus data. NAND uses extra data, e.g. 128 bytes per 4KB page, so that errors can be corrected and detected. (For reference, ZFS uses a fixed size 32 byte checksum for blocks ranging from 512 bytes to megabytes. That’s small by comparison, but bear in mind that the SSD’s ECC is required for the expected analog variances within the media.) The devices have a bit error rate that’s tiny enough to expect no errors over the device’s lifetime. In addition, there are other sources of device errors where a file system’s redundant check could be invaluable. SSDs have a multitude of components, and in volume consumer products they rarely contain end-to-end ECC protection leaving the possibility of data being corrupted in transit. Further, their complex firmware can (does) contain bugs that can result in data loss."
(sorry for the edits, I finally found the paragraph my memory was referring to)
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honestly, it's the first Mac OS release I'd actively recommend avoiding upgrading to. It offers essentially no benefits over the prior release, and a whole lot of downsides. (Security issues notwithstanding, High Sierra also drops compatibility for a lot of older software.)
Lion actively screwed up normal people's workflows with the botched "Save As" replacement. I still want an explanation of why they thought that was a good idea. We skipped that one after one of the admin assistants discovered the new joy. The whole California-series of OS has had a broken Finder. I see some fixes in High Sierra, but its still buggy as heck for large file moves and broken scripting. I'm hoping they ta…
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#74Two bugs are described in this article: 1. An APFS volume's free space doesn't reflect a smaller amount of free space on the underlying disk 2. The diskimages-helper application doesn't report errors when write requests fail to grow the disk image These are not even complex problems of the new format. It is just Apple forgot to have basic checks. It is like the root access with an empty password incident happened 2 m…
This is by far the best explanation of what’s happening at Apple and why we’re noticing these bugs and problems: https://www.imore.com/understanding-apple-scale
If you built a new filesystem, competent software engineers will heavily test the corner cases. What happens when the fs runs out of space? What happens when the metadata store runs out of space? etc.
The original article mentions bugs that are pretty obvious cases to test. What precisely happens when you have a sparsebundle that exceeds the storage capacity of the containing volume? A PM needs to define what should happen and an eng needs to test that it does.
It's inexcusable that things like this aren't tested and is an organizational failure. This isn't some complex interaction of earbuds with watch and a cloud system. This is a very testable filesystem.
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
You appear to have an agenda of protecting Apple. The title is very clear, and the first paragraph which you quoted explains it in detail. It's significant that an established respected company--the makers of Carbon Copy Cloner--will not support APFS formatted disk images for its backups. While your agenda may be driven by the need to protect Apple, the rest of us need to know this important news about APFS so we can…
Carbon Copy Cloner is an excellent program btw - very happy owner here
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#76Sure, it's a new filesystem; it's bound to have bugs. However, one pain point I've identified is that the existing tools often have no idea of how to deal with APFS. I'm currently typing this from a Mac with an APFS drive that is almost certainly experiencing filesystem corruption–I have folders that suddenly lose track of their contents and become impossible to delete ; however, existing tools such as fsck, diskutil…
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#77Yes, fairly limited impact, but still. Data loss is fucking important. We aren't talking about an occasional stutter when moving windows or a sound driver that sometimes needs a reboot to resume working. This is a major bug. I would really really like it if Apple would get their shit together so that people who actually rely on their computers to work correctly can upgrade at some point.
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
As did other versions of OSX[0]. This whole meme should get a law like Betteridge’s. Complaints about the current release of macOS are as old as the hills[1] and have become entirely vacuous. That’s not to say the complaints aren’t necessarily without merit; just that there is too much hyperbole around them. [0] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apps-that-wont-work-on-... [1] https://youtu.be/GWxC8ezE4Dk
As well as every version of every OS ever. Windows 98 was the best, Windows XP sucked with it's Fisher Price UI. Then Vista/7 came around and the outcry of "if you want the latest DirectX, you have to upgrade". And then Windows XP was discontinued to much wailing and gnashing of teeth, because XP was the best. Then 8/10 came out and everything was terrible and we're just going to stick to Windows 7 because it's the b…
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a neat idea, I've never thought about doing that. You should write a blog post about it.
TBH an I/O system where having a file system inside a loopback device on another file system is faster than using said file system directly in the first place sounds kinda broken-ish/poorly scaling to me.
Re: MacOS may lose data on APFS-formatted disk images
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you know that? Filesystem corruption is frequently silent, and every-time it happens customers don't get on the phone and send the disks to apple so that they can root cause the problem. Its quite possible this bug has happened an untold number of times before it happened to someone who went through the effort to reproduce and isolate it.
>How do you know that? Can you point to any other APFS issues that were reported before this one?