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Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

wired.co.uk

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Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#71
post #46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it doesn't work then it should be taken down. It's even worse, it means the police know it doesn't track criminals and so just want to track regular people. It tests the water of how much the population is willing to be under surveillance. Like boiling a frog you don't notice how much surveillance there is until it's too late.

>It's even worse, it means the police know it doesn't track criminals and so just want to track regular people. The police knowing is really beside the point, local government (councils) own and operate the public space CCTV, the police will and do make use of it. The problem is quality and with quality is identification. If no one knows the person on CCTV there's not much to be done.

The point is that regular folk don't hide their face, so they're easy to be tracked. But criminals know just to hide their features.

Maybe it's just paranoia but I neither want to have to hide my face nor worry about getting spotted in the wrong place at the wrong time by accident.

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#72
post #69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a German, you could not be more wrong [...] Why do you think he's German?

They don't, I'm assuming they're speaking as a German. I'm a Brit living in Belgium. I see the difference and I wish I could have the privacy of no ID cards back.

> They don't

They do, or at least that's what they said.

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#73
post #47
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it doesn't work then it should be taken down. It's even worse, it means the police know it doesn't track criminals and so just want to track regular people. It tests the water of how much the population is willing to be under surveillance. Like boiling a frog you don't notice how much surveillance there is until it's too late.

Like boiling a frog In 2002 Dr. Victor H. Hutchison, Professor Emeritus of Zoology at the University of Oklahoma, with a research interest in thermal relations of amphibians, said that "The legend is entirely incorrect!" He described how a critical thermal maximum for many frog species has been determined by contemporary research experiments: as the water is heated by about 2 °F, or 1.1 °C, per minute, the frog becom…

Damn, there goes another good theory. Perhaps I should change my example to the English getting sunburnt lying on Spanish beaches.

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#74
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current quality for the majority of CCTV is probably not good enough for facial. May be gait recognition is more feasible.

There's an interesting article in last month's Economist. They show resolution that let's an operator recognise a face a mile up the road. That was in Islington.

Maybe a zoom lens that does.

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#75
post #61
post #41

This level of surveillance is a shame given that by luck of never being invaded by the Nazis there's no ID cards in the UK. Somehow also people managed to stop attempts to get ID cards introduced. It might even be because of this. That is, it's easy for other European governments to track people as they have to carry ID at all times. Because the UK government are worried about the lack of this, they go down the CCTV…

The UK government has an unhealthy obsession with surveillance but ID cards are a strange target. They offer nothing except convenience, considering if you ever want to buy alcohol or travel abroad as a Brit, then you have to get a driving license and a passport. The end result is that something as simple as proving who you are on a document, or renewing your driving license, requires that you provide every address y…

Yes give the police have more excuse to stop and ask for "papers please" guess which type of citizen will be asked for this.

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, keeping the Charter as-is doesn't make a huge amount of sense given how tied it is to Citizens of The Union/Member States/Union law (e.g. A15, and most of Title V - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:120... ). Even if you enshrined it into UK law, large parts would cease to apply anyway (e.g. anything that grants rights to "Every citizen of the Union" or begins "The Union recognises…

More concerning would be a withdrawal from the ECHR, which focuses on fundamental human rights per se, not fundamental rights arising out of EU membership. Both are concerning, though. I was recently educated by a real lawyer about my idealistic view of the ECHR. It turns out that I had a fundamental misunderstanding for years, so I will share the essence of what they told me in case I wasn't the only one. (I am not…

This is more or less true, but what the ECHR/HRA does is place a very strong presumption at the heart of UK law that the government of the day will not seek to violate the rights granted under the ECHR. In practice, this means the courts will go to great lengths to interpret the law in line with them, even if it involving reading them in ways that is not readily apparent solely from the text of the Act, before resorting to a declaration of incompatibility. Per the House of Lords:

> In accordance with the will of Parliament as reflected in [the HRA] it will sometimes be necessary to adopt an interpretation which linguistically may appear strained. The techniques to be used will not only involve the reading down of express language in a statute but also the implication of provisions. A declaration of incompatibility is a measure of last resort. [2001] UKHL 25 at 44

You can see similar in R. vs Lambert [2001] UKHL 37 (e.g. at 42). The Court was willing to read a requirement that that the defence must prove a defence as merely requiring that the defence provide sufficient evidence to that effect.

It also provides a degree of political scrutiny - few governments are going to want the courts declaring that they are failing in their human rights obligations, and so even if it does not prevent them from doing so, it provides a very strong incentive to not do so.

This is analogous to judgements made through the ECJ - they only have more legal teeth because A) Parliament has (by the EU treaties) granted them presumed superiority to UK law and B) the EU can take direct actions against the UK because they are a Member State. For the former, there is very little, legally speaking, to prevent the UK government from overriding that presumption and acting counter to their EU obligations (much as it is possible to deliberately set aside the HRA):

> If the time should come when our Parliament deliberately passes an Act with the intention of repudiating the Treaty or any provision in it or intentionally of acting inconsistently with it and says so in express terms then I should have thought that it would be the duty of our courts to follow the statute of our Parliament. Macarthys Ltd v Smith [1980] ECR 1275

Further, that presumption, nor the ability of the EU to take direct actions against the UK, will not continue to exist should the UK continue with leaving the EU. Even if the Charter were retained, the main method of action would be political, rather than having direct effect on UK law and the UK courts. If anything, its scope of action will be less than the ECHR, because it does not an Act analogous to the HRA enabling the courts to make strained re-interpretations of UK law to comply. There would likely also be no ability for British citizens to take cases to the ECJ (which they can do with the ECtHR), so there would be limited external guidance and oversight as to how the rights should apply to the UK context.

IMO, a Bill of Rights would be strictly worse than what is already provided for under the HRA. Because Parliament is sovereign, it is no more immune to the whims of the future governments than the HRA already is. In some ways, directly enumerating rights in UK law may make it slightly _more_ vulnerable - if a future Act of Parliament contradicts one of the rights, the doctrine of implied repeal may apply (the newer Act overwrites the older) and nullify that right. Because the HRA incorporates by reference, and the UK has international obligations they have agreed to regarding them, it is easier for the courts to argue that it cannot have been the will of Parliament to remove rights en masse or act outside the bounds of their international obligations, and interpret the Act in that light. They would be able to require that future Acts must _explicitly_ set aside the rights, much as they have done with EU laws by reference to Treaty obligations (see Macarthys above, or the Factortame series of cases).

In addition, there would be no source of external oversight. Even if the ECtHR is somewhat toothless, it provides external guidance as to how the rights should be utilised, which the UK courts can then apply in their own interpretations. You cannot get that additional layer solely through the application of UK law.

(FWIW - studied law a few years ago, with a focus on human rights/EU law, but never practiced so some of the details/nuances may be lost)

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#77

There is something very important in working out our tolerance to surveillance vs the utility that is absolutely impossible to get without risking surveillance. I can't really articulate it yet, but reading this article it occurs to me how really the old phone system didn't offer much more in the way of privacy (every phone call was recorded), but it offered more in the way of obscurity. Now that our information syst…

Societies that willingly forego privacy in order to allow things like social credit scores will have a large competitive advantage. The effect on social interaction and interaction with the state will be similar to the effect that tripadvisor has on restaurants, or that uber and lyft have on taxi customer service.

Our historical models of losing privacy emphasise the state at the centre of the panoptican observing all citizens while remaining hidden themselves. Correctly implemented, technological tracking of services and employees and bureaucrats has the potential to be much more like true transparency, with everyone having a more accurate picture of everyone else's history of behaviour.

Whether you think that this is desirable or not is really about values and preferences, not an objective question. But I think it is objectively likely that a society like this would enjoy a competitive advantage in terms of organising its economy and society.

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#78
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Briton are 95% comfortable with massive surveillance. Here's a true story, a few years ago I was supervising a diver training session at a swimming pool in London, it was closed to members of the public at the time. My locker was broken into, my phone, tablet, credit cards, car keys and bizarrely a load of Mexican money I happened to have in my wallet was stolen, as were a couple of other lockers. Thank God I hadn't…

That's not proof it doesn't work. If you ran the GCHQ and you had a way to track everyone, would you let it be used to solve petty crime ? Much safer to use it sparingly.

Would you not? It would make you pretty popular for one thing, and much easier to get funding next year.

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (or was forced to them and they didn't push back ) How do you suggest that we should have pushed back? By voting the bastards out? The UK is actually quite good at that, but policy outlives politicians thanks to the civil service.

New government can easily reverse or change the policies of previous governments, the civil service jut enacts what the government of the day tells them to do.

Sort of. The civil service has lots of people with their own agenda which they push to the elected politicians when they ask the civil service for options on how to solve problems

Re: Stop replacing London’s phone boxes with corporate surveillance

#80
post #71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's even worse, it means the police know it doesn't track criminals and so just want to track regular people. The police knowing is really beside the point, local government (councils) own and operate the public space CCTV, the police will and do make use of it. The problem is quality and with quality is identification. If no one knows the person on CCTV there's not much to be done.

The point is that regular folk don't hide their face, so they're easy to be tracked. But criminals know just to hide their features. Maybe it's just paranoia but I neither want to have to hide my face nor worry about getting spotted in the wrong place at the wrong time by accident.

The police by the very definition of their job don't go around "tracking" regular folk. Only those that are doing or have done wrong. Seriously the police have better things to do than watch people on CCTV who aren't doing anything wrong. Not to mention the various laws and regulations that prevent the police doing just that.

Councils on the other hand are a different thing.

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