Might be worth noting that OpenSCHUFA has some ties to the Bertelsmann Foundation, which owns Arvato Infoscore, a SCHUFA competitor.
I think this is properly disclosed.
And definitely does not reduce the value of the effort.
OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
71–80 of 85 posts
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#72Next target: Fair, Isaac. Perhaps the OpenSCHUFA project can be convinced to take on Fair, Isaac next.
17 years living in Germany, never heard of Fair, Isaac.
Creditreform and Arvato are much likely next targets.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#73When applying for a loan, mobile phone contract, or even trying to rent an apartment in Germany, the Schufa score - Germany's credit rating - is decisive. If you have a few "points" too little, your application is refused. (Computer says "No" to your new smartphone or apartment.) However, the calculation of these credit scores - done by the private Schufa company - is fully intransparent. The formula is a trade secre…
How big is your dataset? I'd expect the logic backing a legacy/old school company like this would turn out to be an expert system. If that's the case, and you have a LOT of data, you'd likely get very far by just feeding a bunch of SCHUFA applications and resulting scores into SKL's decision tree classifier. They are easy to visualize, they likely model what's going on behind the scenes, and it takes very little effo…
I cannot answer, I'm not affiliated with the project. Better ask @vavoida.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
> many online services require a passport This is notorious and infuriating violation by many service providers in Germany.
Which ones? I never came across any. They may require a "Personalausweis" (like banks) but not a passport (which is a different thing). An EU citizen can come well by without ever needing one, as he can travel the EU by personal id alone. I only need a passport for international travel. And that makes sense. You can be denied a passport, but not a personal id.
I have definitely experienced the case multiple times online where I have been denied something without a German Personalausweis or a passport. In my case, as a UK citizen I don't have a national ID card, so Passport must do, but the option is never "generic ID card" vs passport, but instead the German Personalausweis. Schufa is guilty of this, and iirc so is ImmoScout.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#75Might be worth noting that OpenSCHUFA has some ties to the Bertelsmann Foundation, which owns Arvato Infoscore, a SCHUFA competitor.
Might be worth to tell the full story, as well:
- OpenSCHUFA was initiated by Open Knowledge Foundation Deutschland and Algorithmwatch, two independent and established NGOs.
- Algorithmwatch is supported by a foundation/trust called "Bertelsmann Stiftung".
- There is also a company called "Bertelsmann", which owns Arvato Infoscore, a competitor to SCHUFA.
- The Bertelsmann Stiftung (which is supporting Algorithmwatch which is co-initiator of OpenSCHUFA) owns a majority of shares of the company (that owns Arvator Infoscore, a competitor to SCHUFA), and some people say the foundation and company are tightly tied together.
- And last but not least Schufa now places in the press, that this is a big conflict of interest.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#76SCHUFA is demanding a passport copy from EU citizens to obtain the annual unpaid data overview report. A citizen of an EU country residing in Germany is under no obligation to hold a passport. I don't understand how until now no one torn the SCHUFA credit bureau into pieces over it. https://i.imgur.com/nEZRJDv.png
They say that, but there is really no need. Just send them a letter with your name, DoB and address and request the information. They'll process it just fine, they actually have to because the law doesn't require a passport for identification. I guess it is just a dark pattern to sell their "premium" products.
Show me a thing on their website which is not a dark pattern tricking users into their scammy pseudo-products.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, that's what's important for landlords. You get a letter from scufa saying "There are no negative entries for this person". That's enough. However if you try to get a phone contract, credit card, internet contract, or anything else that requires payment in the future then your score is pretty much the only relevant part. And that score is (maybe it varies by country) completely abysmal by default if you've moved…
I had no issue signing up for internet with 1&1 for two years, and got a free SIM card in the process. As for credit cards, that's pretty common, traditional banks want to see your salary landing on your checking account for a few months before they issue you a credit card. Comdirect gave me a prepaid VISA in the meantime. Anyway I ended up using a debit card (the MasterCard from N26) for almost everything, and later…
You really shouldn't use N26. I don't know if they have improved the security of their app during the past two years, but here is a talk from 33c3 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7969-shut_up_and_take_my_money
It's worth watching. They show how they where able to take over accounts and such.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#78If this is really ‘open’, how we can access submitted data? Otherwise comments here about this project funded by competitor is making this a bit fishy.
1. date is not open yet, first people have to request the data (will take probalby 4-6 weeks until they get the credit scores) 2. see below https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16391885
If it will be open there is no problem at all.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why you're immediately teasing UK? They are exception in this regard. I'm talking about national IDs which most other EU (all but UK?) countries are issuing. Yet SCHUFA clearly demands passport in their instructions. In 6 different languages, 4 of which are official languages of the EU.
Because passports are the international standard, issued under international guidelines while identity cards aren't.
EU national identity cards are issues under EU guidelines and recognized by the authorities of all member states.
Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency
#80Might be worth noting that OpenSCHUFA has some ties to the Bertelsmann Foundation, which owns Arvato Infoscore, a SCHUFA competitor.
Might be worth to tell the full story, as well: - OpenSCHUFA was initiated by Open Knowledge Foundation Deutschland and Algorithmwatch, two independent and established NGOs. - Algorithmwatch is supported by a foundation/trust called "Bertelsmann Stiftung". - There is also a company called "Bertelsmann", which owns Arvato Infoscore, a competitor to SCHUFA. - The Bertelsmann Stiftung (which is supporting Algorithmwatch…
As stated before, we are not only asking for SCHUFA but also arvato data, see blogpost https://okfn.de/blog/2018/02/openschufa-english/#update