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How America Fractured in 1968

nytimes.com

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Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#71

Post by wu-ikkyu »

Anechoic wrote: post #60
jancsika wrote: post #48

I'm seeing a body of growing evidence that the long-term fracture was due to the War in Vietnam: * it created anti-government groups like the Weathermen * it spurred activist groups on campuses around the country to stage admin building take-overs, sit-ins, and attempts to disruption to the war draft * it created a group of Veterans-- like John Kerry-- who came back and described for the general public horrific war c…

Don't forget that toward the end of his life, MLK Jr. spoke out against the war and ended up splitting his own base. MLK's speaking out against the war was unpopular, but do you have any references that show he actions split his "base"? That's interesting since I was under the impression that the war was deeply unpopular with blacks.

He talks about it in his speeches, and it's also worth noting that his base was not only composed of black people

>I remember so well when I first took a stand against the war in Vietnam. The critics took me on and they had their say in the most negative and sometimes most vicious way. One day a newsman came to me and said, "Dr. King, don’t you think you’re going to have to stop, now, opposing the war and move more in line with the administration’s policy? As I understand it, it has hurt the budget of your organization, and people who once respected you have lost respect for you. Don’t you feel that you’ve really got to change your position?" I looked at him and I had to say, "Sir, I’m sorry you don’t know me. I’m not a consensus leader. I do not determine what is right and wrong by looking at the budget of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. I’ve not taken a sort of Gallup Poll of the majority opinion." Ultimately a genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus, but a molder of consensus.

-Remaining Awake Through A Great Revolution, 1968

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#72

Post by pm90 »

evgen wrote: post #36
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should have? Yes. Could have? Probably not. No one in the US gave two shits about French Indochina, it was all about Western Europe and containing the USSR/Communists during the scramble to pick up the pieces after the war. And what exactly business was of them to contain anything in foreign countries?

It was no more the business of the US to contain the USSR in Western Europe than it was the business of the USSR to violently repress any possibility of democracy in Eastern Europe and install puppet governments in same. Realpolitik is a bitch, but better to understand the real world than pretend that some fantasy of how things "should" work is a useful guide.

Very well put. I would say that containment went too far (even Keenan thought so later in life) but violent class struggle and Communist takeover was exactly what was being pursued by the Soviet Union. Although initially the hope seems to be an international coalition of workers under Communism (i.e. there would be no need for an invasion, workers from all nations would unite under its banner) the Bolsheviks quickly crushed that idea by turning the first truly communist state into a virtual dictatorship, and crushing any opposition using violence.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#73

Post by Feniks »

balance_factor wrote: post #10

> It was also the year of the Tet offensive, an enormous attack by North Vietnamese forces, and of more than 16,000 American deaths in the Vietnam War, more than in any other year. Sigh...half a century later the Tet offensive is called "an enormous attack by North Vietnamese forces". How about an enormous attack by "South" Vietnamese forces, like the National Liberation Front? Who took over the American embassy in S…

In hindsight the US should have just supported Ho Chi Minh and his government. The man was more of a nationalist and anti colonialist than a Soviet pawn.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#74

Post by Feniks »

coldtea wrote: post #34
Clubber wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next? Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years? My uncle was drafted in Vietnam, except he didn't go to Vietnam, he went to West Germany. He spent his time waiting for the Soviets to roll their tanks over the border.

> The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next? Again, that's not their business. Besides half of Europe wanted to be socialist -- and I'm speaking of the support for such parties in Western Europe. > Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years? Many wished exactly that at the time. Again, not the business of a foreign power to meddle.

The US didn't meddle, NATO was co founded by European governments. My own country literally begged the US to house nuclear weapons in order to keep the Soviets out.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#75

Post by dsnuh »

jancsika wrote: post #48

I'm seeing a body of growing evidence that the long-term fracture was due to the War in Vietnam: * it created anti-government groups like the Weathermen * it spurred activist groups on campuses around the country to stage admin building take-overs, sit-ins, and attempts to disruption to the war draft * it created a group of Veterans-- like John Kerry-- who came back and described for the general public horrific war c…

I watched Vietnam In HD (great series) and I came away with many of the same observations that you did.

Do you feel like this was also a generation that missed their chance to be "men"? What I mean by that is that in all past memory, men had gone off to battle and were welcomed home as heroes. This was different, and I feel like in some ways led to the emasculation of the American male. They missed their chance to be heroes like their fathers had been in WWII. The women's rights movement also started at the same time. It was a complete upset to the social norms that had been established in society.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#76

Post by Synaesthesia »

dsnuh wrote: post #75
jancsika wrote: post #48

I'm seeing a body of growing evidence that the long-term fracture was due to the War in Vietnam: * it created anti-government groups like the Weathermen * it spurred activist groups on campuses around the country to stage admin building take-overs, sit-ins, and attempts to disruption to the war draft * it created a group of Veterans-- like John Kerry-- who came back and described for the general public horrific war c…

I watched Vietnam In HD (great series) and I came away with many of the same observations that you did. Do you feel like this was also a generation that missed their chance to be "men"? What I mean by that is that in all past memory, men had gone off to battle and were welcomed home as heroes. This was different, and I feel like in some ways led to the emasculation of the American male. They missed their chance to be…

There’s nothing great about war, war is misery, death and suffering. Anyone who didn’t have to take part in one is lucky.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#77

Post by Clubber »

jancsika wrote: post #48

I'm seeing a body of growing evidence that the long-term fracture was due to the War in Vietnam: * it created anti-government groups like the Weathermen * it spurred activist groups on campuses around the country to stage admin building take-overs, sit-ins, and attempts to disruption to the war draft * it created a group of Veterans-- like John Kerry-- who came back and described for the general public horrific war c…

Here's a fun fact: Jimi Hendrix was a paratrooper in the early 60s and supported it in it's early stages. Of course later he abandoned his support for the war as many did.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#78

Post by Clubber »

dsnuh wrote: post #75
jancsika wrote: post #48

I'm seeing a body of growing evidence that the long-term fracture was due to the War in Vietnam: * it created anti-government groups like the Weathermen * it spurred activist groups on campuses around the country to stage admin building take-overs, sit-ins, and attempts to disruption to the war draft * it created a group of Veterans-- like John Kerry-- who came back and described for the general public horrific war c…

I watched Vietnam In HD (great series) and I came away with many of the same observations that you did. Do you feel like this was also a generation that missed their chance to be "men"? What I mean by that is that in all past memory, men had gone off to battle and were welcomed home as heroes. This was different, and I feel like in some ways led to the emasculation of the American male. They missed their chance to be…

A contributing factor to this phenomenon is the overwhelming presence of news cameras in that war. In previous US wars, the news was censored under war time powers. In Vietnam, citizens watched every night in gory, uncensored detail, what was actually happening. Of course time takes it's toll as the war drug on with no meaningful resolution.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#79

Post by dsnuh »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #76
dsnuh wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched Vietnam In HD (great series) and I came away with many of the same observations that you did. Do you feel like this was also a generation that missed their chance to be "men"? What I mean by that is that in all past memory, men had gone off to battle and were welcomed home as heroes. This was different, and I feel like in some ways led to the emasculation of the American male. They missed their chance to be…

There’s nothing great about war, war is misery, death and suffering. Anyone who didn’t have to take part in one is lucky.

Oh definitely, I wasn't advocating for war, but I think it is it clearly something that attitudes changed about inexorably after Vietnam.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#80

Post by philk10 »

dsnuh wrote: post #75
jancsika wrote: post #48

I'm seeing a body of growing evidence that the long-term fracture was due to the War in Vietnam: * it created anti-government groups like the Weathermen * it spurred activist groups on campuses around the country to stage admin building take-overs, sit-ins, and attempts to disruption to the war draft * it created a group of Veterans-- like John Kerry-- who came back and described for the general public horrific war c…

I watched Vietnam In HD (great series) and I came away with many of the same observations that you did. Do you feel like this was also a generation that missed their chance to be "men"? What I mean by that is that in all past memory, men had gone off to battle and were welcomed home as heroes. This was different, and I feel like in some ways led to the emasculation of the American male. They missed their chance to be…

This makes similar points - https://thenib.com/the-good-war
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