A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#71

Post by korethr » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #4

Wow, after all these years I finally learned the name of this phenomenon, constant bearing decreasing range. I recall a scene in the movie Sin City where two cars crash and the camera was moving in CBDR to the perpendicular car as it zoomed into the impact site. I thought it was a cool shot. Also I’ve almost hit pedestrians several times when they were obscured by my A pillar. Sometimes I wonder if I would have actua…

Likewise. I don't know how many times I'd observed this phenomenon, and made the right conclusion (that thing's gonna hit me!). It was just another thing I intuitively did, without fully conciously knowing what it was or how to communicate it to others.

Knowing what it is now, and how it can happen in driving, gives me one more tool I can use to be a slightly less horribly dangerous driver on public roads.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#72

Post by jschwartzi » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:41 AM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #26

matte_black wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the goal is to maintain speed through the intersection they could have built a bridge to overlap the other road.

I get that the author wanted a cheap solution but this is really the correct approach. A gradual bridge/tunnel with two slip lanes would accommodate everyone, including the people that want to blow though the intersection. All the solutions like, 'let's find a way to force cars to slow down' are just going to make auto drivers have even more resentment toward cyclists.

You make it sound like resentment is something to be avoided. Drivers don't own the road simply because they drive. They need to share it with the other tax payers. Frankly I'm tired of having to accommodate the apparently frail emotions of someone who has chosen to aim 2000 pounds of metal at my person.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#73

Post by alphaalpha101 » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:44 AM UTC

gklitt wrote: post #18

The conclusion of the article reminds me of the idea behind blameless postmortems for system outages. Human mistakes are inevitable, and it's our responsibility to design resilient systems that acknowledge that simple fact. While software engineering is an immature discipline in many ways, blameless postmortems seem like a counterexample -- they're a well-known best practice in software that don't seem as common in s…

Blameless postmortems are good to do at the systemic level, but not a legal one It's ultimately the responsibility of road users (drivers, cyclists, whatever) to keep themselves and others safe.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#74

Post by lostlogin » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:45 AM UTC

recursive wrote: post #28

rayiner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing drivers to make left turns just to stay on the same road is a recipe for more car accidents. The proble could be resolved simply by putting up a stop light.

Your assertion about what's a recipe for more collisions is not well supported. It doesn't even seem true to me.

Adding a dog leg into a rural road so that cars have to stop while waiting to turn (exposed to traffic flow) is a terrible solution. There is one like this that I pass through occasionally and it’s hair raising. If you end up being behind someone following the same route through the dog leg it’s even worse.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#75

Post by nostrademons » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:45 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #65

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

Roundabouts and 4-way stops are used in different situations - a 4-way stop is typically used in residential neighborhoods or street grids where the roads are only single-lane and the lack of available space prohibits a roundabout.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#76

Post by jdavis703 » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:45 AM UTC

gklitt wrote: post #18

The conclusion of the article reminds me of the idea behind blameless postmortems for system outages. Human mistakes are inevitable, and it's our responsibility to design resilient systems that acknowledge that simple fact. While software engineering is an immature discipline in many ways, blameless postmortems seem like a counterexample -- they're a well-known best practice in software that don't seem as common in s…

Most vehicle collisions are not blameless though. They are caused by inattentive people; I've almost been hit multiple times by people either on their cell phone, or chatting with a passenger in their vehicle.

Other times drivers are purposely driving with a priority on agressivenss over safety.

If we ever get to a state of zero traffic fatalities then maybe blameless post-mortems would make sense. But there's too much blatantly bad behavior occuring.

It would be as if a pilot crashed buzzing the control tower. Clearly a human operator was being reckless and deserves punishment.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#77

Post by bsder » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:46 AM UTC

Declanomous wrote: post #45

>We must note that there are two parts to the definition of dangerous driving. Firstly the standard of driving must be “far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver”, and secondly it must be “obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous”. The longer I use the road in any function (cycling, driving, walking, etc), the more I am convinced that the vast majo…

> The longer I use the road in any function (cycling, driving, walking, etc), the more I am convinced that the vast majority of people are not competent drivers.

You are almost right. ALL people are incompetent drivers.

Driving is a task of 99% boring routine habit punctuated by 1% of moments requiring extreme engagement. Humans are not engineered for these kinds of swings.

But computers are. And that's why the takeover of self-driving cars will be not just inevitable but also swift.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#78

Post by ajmurmann » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:47 AM UTC

Declanomous wrote: post #45

>We must note that there are two parts to the definition of dangerous driving. Firstly the standard of driving must be “far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver”, and secondly it must be “obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous”. The longer I use the road in any function (cycling, driving, walking, etc), the more I am convinced that the vast majo…

This is true! It's one of the big reasons I cannot wait for self driving cars. I love driving on empty country roads but feel it's impossible to 100% safely drive on busier roads, especially if you also need to read road signs because you don't know where you are going (what's up with US traffic sighs being covered in text btw.? That's obviously a terrible idea!).

I came to this conclusion a few weeks after I had gotten my drivers license. I was meeting onto a Autobahn exit. I had a big truck in front. I check the mirror. All fine. Look over my shoulder to check blind spot and my girlfriend who was the passenger starts screaming because the truck in front had jammed on its breaks. I immediate slowed down and all was well. However it was a reasonably close call. Even now, many years later I'm unsure what I should have done differently. I need to look over the shoulder, I couldn't have kept meaningful, more space between me and the truck because I needed to adjust speed to the lane I wanted to merge into. I'm convinced it's a situation that can't be reliably handled 100% of the time given human limitations. Yet most people I talk to think that you just need to get gud.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#79

Post by jdavis703 » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:47 AM UTC

iamnotlarry wrote: post #41

giardini wrote: post #37

A few speed bumps at the intersection would slow drivers. Speed bumps are cheap and effective. You can lay several in series to encourage drivers to slow. It would be a shame not to use them in such an instance, where lives might be saved.

Speed bumps have proven to be undesirable tools in many situations. For instance, it is often the case that motorists will increase their speed after a speed bump to make up for the time lost because of the speed bump.

Then put in a speed bump, followed by a speed camera. The speed bump ensures people aren't being "entrapped" by a hidden camera.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#80

Post by cmurf » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:49 AM UTC

mikebenfield wrote: post #67

cmurf wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because in America you grandma can legally teach you how to drive and so you learn all her bad habits. It's a feature, not a bug. And your driving test might cover this type of intersection or it might not. The testing is like 50 out of 5000 possible questions. Again, it's a feature (of idiocy) not a bug. I personally know maybe one other person, who knows that the location of the stop sign defines a line perp…

> the location of the stop sign defines a line perpendicular to your lane and you're supposed to stop completely before this imaginary line. Almost no one knows this is the law. I am inclined not to believe this. I have been told by a traffic cop before that if there is no marked stop line or crosswalk, there is no legally defined point where the stop must happen: it's just a "use reasonable judgment" kind of thing.…

driver of a vehicle shall stop at a stop sign or at a clearly marked stop line before entering the intersection, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.30

And stopping right before the stop sign is what I was taught in driver's ed, not by my grandma.

One of the joys of driving in the U.S. is every state has it's own driving laws and while they're substantially the same, they are by far not identical (see lane splitting in California vs everywhere else, and turning right on red).

Also you'll find some states will define the intersection as including sidewalks, which is why you'll usually find the stop sign placed right before the sidewalk, not after it. http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-cross...