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Telegram Isn't for Sale

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Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#71

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

SyneRyder wrote: post #40
krrrh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not counting VAT which is 19% of most of what you purchase. Corporate tax is largely bundled into consumer prices as well, and depending on your consumption patterns, and transportations choices there are other taxes that apply. In no way is this list exhaustive.

There's also the compulsory 9% Church Tax in Germany, unless you formally renounce your religion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/113... Notably: "The changes include German banks now having to withhold the tax on capital gains of account-holders who are church members."

The 9% are on the income tax, e.g. 9% of 40% not on income.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#72

Post by SyneRyder »

germanier wrote: post #45
SyneRyder wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the compulsory 9% Church Tax in Germany, unless you formally renounce your religion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/113... Notably: "The changes include German banks now having to withhold the tax on capital gains of account-holders who are church members."

It's 8-9% of your income tax – so in reality maybe 2% of your income or less. This tax is levied by the churches. You may be against the fact that they get this right because you support a more strict separation of church and state (which is not in the spirit of the German constitution) but this is hardly something the state is to blame for.

Ahh, I didn't realize it was a percentage of income tax. It was explained to me by Germans as tithing, according to the idea of donating 10% of your annual income to the church.

I'm not necessarily for or against it, and it does seem pragmatic for the government to automatically collect it on the church's behalf. The part that does seem strange to me is that you have to renounce your religion to opt out of the automatic deduction, but I understand it's a cultural difference. I'm more used to the idea of contributions as voluntary.

(I'm not German or religious, just an Australian who is a fan of Berlin & Germany and often considers moving there.)

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#75

Post by germanier »

rorykoehler wrote: post #64
TrickyRick wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you didn't get healthcare, free education for 20+ years, subsidised student loans, retirement money, police, fire department etc. from the state? You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you.

Healthcare isn’t free in Germany. It’s extortionately expensive.

It is (close to) free if you already pay the contributions we are discussing about here. Note how the post said you get free healthcare if you paid your contributions.

The contributions are not extortionately expensive. It may seem that way if you are healthy, high-earner, and young. But looking at the actual cost of providing healthcare it's pretty competitively priced. Over the lifetime of a person private health insurance is not that much cheaper. You can view the difference as a tax supporting the poor and chronically ill if you like.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#77

Post by kqr »

_s wrote: post #17
mrwong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (pl…

I don't know, both figures seem entirely reasonable to me.

However, looking at the OECD figures for Germany of yearly tax revenue (all types of taxation) per capita (15 kUSD) and yearly average wages (45 kUSD), you'd think 30% was the average tax pressure. It then makes sense that you'd pay slightly more taxes, given that you probably earn more.

What the other person may have referred to is some combination involving the tax wedge (the ratio between labour taxes and labour cost not counting taxes), which is 50% in Germany currently, and was near 55% a few years ago. But that number is not relevant to this discussion...

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#78

Post by cjhopman »

jperry wrote: post #68
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the locations of his servers are merely a secret, isn't that just security through obscurity? Isn't that a serious weakness? Or is there a more advanced way his servers are kept secret than merely being a secret?

Why would you assume it's "just security though obscurity" and not "security plus obscurity"? Or that "obscurity"" as a security measure is a tragic weakness. This is a trap a lot of people fall into and I don't know why.

Do you really not know why? Or is the obvious answer just too offensive?

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#79

Post by CodesInChaos »

a-saleh wrote: post #59
krrrh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not counting VAT which is 19% of most of what you purchase. Corporate tax is largely bundled into consumer prices as well, and depending on your consumption patterns, and transportations choices there are other taxes that apply. In no way is this list exhaustive.

so .. 59% tax then?

You can't just add the percentages for income tax and VAT. If you were to combine a 40% income tax and a 19% VAT, you'd end up with 49.6% effective tax. (1-(1-0.40)/1.19)

(I'm not arguing that this naive computation makes sense, you pay different VAT rates or no VAT at all, depending on what you buy. I don't think you have to pay VAT on rent, which is a significant part of the income for many people and reduced VAT on most groceries)

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#80

Post by fooker »

nickpp wrote: post #69
pavlov wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole…

But wouldn't you have liked to shop around for those free-but-paid-from-your-taxes services? And benefit from competition between providers which drives prices down and quality up? Government are ultimate monopolies: always getting worse and more expensive. Maybe you are thinking about a handful of functioning, high quality governments (US, Germany, Nordic States) but I am thinking about the great majority of the gov…

You can shop around for products. Doesn't work that well for infrastructure.
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