Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing • Hacker News Board

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#71

Post by musage » Mon, Dec 04, 2017, 9:27 PM UTC

owlmirror wrote: post #65

musage wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Einstein was born in Southern Germany, with ancestors that had been there for centuries. German Wikipedia describes his family as "assimilated, non-orthodox, Jewish-German middleclass" and quotes him as being grateful to his town of birth, Ulm, for part of his character. English WP says "The Einsteins were non-observant Ashkenazi Jews", and he got the arguable most important part of his education in Switzerland where…

That does not mean that Jews didn't face sharp and harsh discrimination by the very widespread and strong antisemitism at the time. Arguably they were one of the most prosecuted people in European history. And despite all that they still fared very well in comparison to the majority population. Which makes the narrative that the lack of success in other groups is entirely grounded in lack of opportunity due to discri…

What about some actual data? The article does offer data, not a "narrative".

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#72

Post by eighthnate » Mon, Dec 04, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

kiliantics wrote: post #4

I think the problem is deeper than the author suggests. Not only are certain groups of people not getting the resources they need, there is also the matter of a cultural disconnect between the people in power who control the resources, and the underserved who may deserve them. > "We do a pretty good job at identifying the kids who are good at throwing a football or playing a trumpet," We do a good job of this now, bu…

> I think the problem is deeper than the author suggests. Not only are certain groups of people not getting the resources they need, there is also the matter of a cultural disconnect between the people in power who control the resources, and the underserved who may deserve them.

Beyond the cultural disconnect and more importantly, there is a disconnect in self-interest. It isn't in the interest of those in power to level the playing field. Humans are selfish creatures. We all want our family, friends, etc to have the advantage. We want ours to always have an advantage over others.

This isn't a conservative or liberal issue. It isn't bigots vs non-bigots. It's an innate human concern. Liberal parents/people want to advantage their children, families, etc over the others just as much as conservatives.

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#73

Post by afpx » Mon, Dec 04, 2017, 10:52 PM UTC

meri_dian wrote: post #58

afpx wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that ‘cogs’ are necessary. However, shouldn’t the individual be able to decide that, not the educational system? The current system doesn’t enrich children in ways that allow kids to explore other options. Look up successful technology company founders - you’ll see that many went to alternative schools like Montessori. But, the vast majority of kids don’t have access to that type of exploratory education.…

To your first point, business is largely a zero sum game at any given time for business owners. I believe the number of entrepreneurs who can be supported by the economic ecosystem is already at its current carrying capacity, so giving more opportunity to the poor will not increase the total sum but rather just change the social background of those who go on to become entrepreneurs. This is not a bad thing, but it st…

To be clear, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with hierarchies. I implied that when I said that ‘cogs’ are necessary. Hierarchies are a good way of organizing work.

But, I do think there is a problem with social and economic systems that encourage animal hierarchies - ones where a person’s birth status directly affects their future social status. That is very inefficient.

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#74

Post by sewer_bird » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 4:25 AM UTC

djrobstep wrote: post #39

sewer_bird wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality of outcome's implication is a culture engaging in an authoritarian and quixotic pursuit of perfect human misery. It is hard enough to ensure a specific outcome for yourself, let alone another, and even less so to make two people come out exactly the same. Equality of opportunity at least acknowledges that culture produces winners and losers.

Dying in the gutter because you can't afford health insurance seems pretty miserable to me. Working at Walmart for minimum wage to make Sam Walton's useless children richer seems pretty miserable to me. There are many well proven ways to make people more equal, strong government welfare programs being one. They are very straightforward. Culture doesn't make people winners and losers, a brutally enforced system of aut…

I don't see a contradiction between Equality of Opportunity and welfare programs. Indeed, they seem to be proposed hand-in-hand by most people, so I'll set aside for a moment the emotional content of your argument.

I do not see how invoking 'authoritarian capitalism' serves as a refutation that cultures of human beings creates winners and losers.

The distinction to make here is that Equality of Outcome requires everyone to have the same outcome. Feeling as you must do, surely you would prefer a reduction in inequality, not mandatory equality?

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#75

Post by afpx » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 4:32 AM UTC

ataturk wrote: post #57

afpx wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that ‘cogs’ are necessary. However, shouldn’t the individual be able to decide that, not the educational system? The current system doesn’t enrich children in ways that allow kids to explore other options. Look up successful technology company founders - you’ll see that many went to alternative schools like Montessori. But, the vast majority of kids don’t have access to that type of exploratory education.…

Interesting comment. I grew up in a blue-ish collar rust-belt city, was "gifted" (whatever that means) and ended up getting a PhD (no debts, though) that I now arguably don't make money from. Everything you mentioned is very common, but I'm not sure that observation points to some kind of change we can make versus the underlying day to day realities of the US circa 2017. My big takeaway from years inside higher educa…

Your last paragraph is particularly funny to me because it’s exactly my experience, too. For all my hard work and successes, my marriage had the most impact. It opened doors to me that weren’t previously available. And, that access was most important.

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#76

Post by jaredklewis » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 12:48 PM UTC

meri_dian wrote: post #54

afpx wrote: post #25

I didn’t even begin to understand the patent system or even the business side of innovation until I was in my late 30s. Yet, I have noticed that the most financially successful innovators that I know have had many family advisors and connections throughout their life. But, inequality is just a small piece. First, you need real education reform - educating kids on how the system operates. The current education system…

1. We need "cogs" in the system. In a developed nation in the 21st century being a "cog" is a really great existence. 2. Profoundly gifted people generally do rise to the top as our system is already structured, assuming they want to, given the average amount of support. "The System" as it stands is doing a great job of the dual goals of helping the average live their lives to the fullest and also giving the gifted a…

How could we possibly know this? We would at least need to know how many potentially profoundly gifted people there are before we can know if we’ve done a good job supporting them.