Live data from Hacker News

Ajit Pai is right

stratechery.com

71–80 of 316 posts

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#71
post #6

This person misses the entire point of the argument for Net Neutrality - Yes it can be convenient if you know ALL of the apps and or services you'd like to use, however the entire internet being visible means putting small companies you have not yet heard of on nearly equal footing - giving them the chance to compete against the giants of commerce and sometimes (yes, sometimes it happens) WIN! The beauty of the inter…

I’m a weekly listener of Ben Thompson’s (the author) podcast, exponent, and it’s bizarre that he’s making this argument. Many of the last few episodes have made the point that over-burdensome regulation on Facebook would have the affect of harming small businesses’ abilities to advertise themselves along side large incumbents. It’s strange to see him make what appears to be the opposite argument here. Your point is well made and well taken!

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#72

Yawn. Another libertarian who believes "The Market will Regulate itself." No matter how much proof you have to the contrary, you'll still have those claiming less regulations are better. Companies exist to make money. "Social Good" they claim are facades. Because at the end of the day, if "Illegal_fine*percentage_caught < Illegal Gains", they're going to do it. And we have not much further to look than Google/Amazon/…

EDIT: deleted

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#73

I don't want an ISP to push ANY apps that won't count against your data cap. How does that serve to promote competition? How is any company going to win over Facebook/Spotify/Youtube/etc. when every single ISP offers an internet plan that doesn't count data when used with those apps? That's outrageous, on top of the obvious fact that ISPs will tend to push their own services over others, or price-gouge apps to be pro…

EDIT: deleted

Maybe in a vacuum it's a bad argument, but this is within the context of Comcast & Friends. Nor is it my only argument.

You're also misrepresenting it with your quote. I don't mistrust them because I don't like them. I mistrust them because of things these companies have done in the past. There's absolutely no good faith in their actions, as shown previously.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#74
So many things wrong in that article, I don't know where to begin.

I will begin with the part where he contradicts himself in the article, implying the Portugal style zero-rating is no big deal in the first half of the article, and then saying zero-rating could potentially be the biggest threat in the second half.

The second stuff he's wrong about is he conflates (poor) European country prices with the U.S. prices, so from his point of view it looks like the Portuguse have sort of a "first world problem" when they complain that the next 10GB costs only 5 euro if they buy an app package.

His mistake here is that he's not putting things into the local context. Many European countries have 1Gbps cable internet that costs somewhere around 15-30 euro. To Americans that looks "dirt cheap". But to the people in those countries it's just regular prices. It's not cheap for them, which is why most have stuck on the "much slower" 100 Mbps lines and such. So saying that Portuguese don't have anything to whine about because their internet is already "cheap" or whatever, is just wrong.

Another thing is that today's 1GB data plan is tomorrow's 10GB data plan on mobile devices. Data usage is exploding. Without net neutrality (and strong competition), ISPs could leave everyone on the 1GB plan 5 years later, even though they now need 10GB of data for their daily needs, while overcharging them for "app packages".

This way, carriers could move us from a world of "I can visit 100% of the internet on my data plan" to "I can visit only 10% of the internet on my data plan..for the other 90% I will have to buy various data packages, where the internet is split into groups of services."

And again, competition IS the ultimately solution. But net neutrality is there to ensure things don't go terrible when there isn't any competition. If the US wants to get rid of net neutrality, then it should first try to foster much stronger competition at a local level. Then we can begin discussing the repeal of net neutrality, if still necessary.

Also, Ben must have a short memory. Before the previous FCC started arguing for net neutrality, Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon started slowing down Netflix and Youtube. I was constantly seeing people on Reddit complaining that their 50 Mbps Comcast connections can't seem to handle the 3Mbps Netflix traffic.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/02/netfl...

But seriously, do we really need to spell out why the U.S. ISPs want to get rid of net neutrality? Does Ben actually believe that the ISPs are doing this because the rules have been "oh so hard on them"? Or is it because they want to screw the consumers nine ways to heaven, and having no rules in place, just like when they repealed the privacy framework recently banning them from collecting user data, will help them do that?

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#75
Ajit Pai isn't right, but here's why it doesn't even matter: he's ignoring the will of the people.

Under his chairmanship the FCC has (1)intentionally made it more difficult to comment on proceedings, (2) ignored the blatant and illegal automated responses that flooded the comment system without the knowledge of the people whose names were used, (3) tried to suppress participation by faking a DDOS, (4) obstructed investigations into both #2 and #3, (5) used debunked claims with debunked data to justify a rules change, and (6) come right out said that comments would be ignored because they didn't contradict the debunked data.

They are lying, and the ISP-backed pundits that write articles like this are lying too.

The one and only remedy to Net Neutrality is robust competition, but we waved bye-bye to that long ago. ISPs have government-granted monopolies (or duopolies), and they are vertically integrated.

We need the protection of NN, it's the only thing keeping the entrepreneurial spirit alive in this country.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#76
post #54

Ajit Pai is wrong and so is the author. He’s confusing safety and soundness regulation with economic regulation, and incorrectly asserting they’re equal. They are not. Net neutrality is about the safety and soundness of the internet. What he’s saying is “hey it has been okay so regulation is bad until we have to have it. Because all regulation is bad.” That’s a pretty fucked and ignorant way of looking at regulation…

> It’s quite sad to see this getting upvotes. Upvotes don't necessarily mean agreement, it means that the community is interested in discussing the contents of the article. And including jabs like this does nothing but worsen that discussion.

I'm afraid the "flag" feature has been abused to mean disagreement in this case sadly. Hopefully the article becomes unflagged.

EDIT: no longer flagged, yay.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#77
Really the argument is what type of service do these companies provide? It should forever be just a "dumb data pipe". Many interests are attempting to bastardize this and call the Service something else to eek out more profit.

I as a consumer should simply be able to purchase "access". That is, I should be able to purchase a pre-defined pipe from my provider. I should be allowed to pass as much traffic in and out that pipe as much as possible to any destination without discrimination. If the ISP sells me a pipe @10Mbps then I should be able to fully utilize it (save for latency/jitter/loss to destinations, etc..). I am paying to pass _data_. It is akin to my power company, I am paying for electricty (say 200 Amp service). My ISP should only look at it as _data_ and nothing more. The moment they put their fingers into my _data_ they are not supplying me a service I paid for.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#78

Ajit Pai is wrong and so is the author. He’s confusing safety and soundness regulation with economic regulation, and incorrectly asserting they’re equal. They are not. Net neutrality is about the safety and soundness of the internet. What he’s saying is “hey it has been okay so regulation is bad until we have to have it. Because all regulation is bad.” That’s a pretty fucked and ignorant way of looking at regulation…

[deleted]

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#79

The only argument here is "it might not be necessary, so it's not worth the costs." Can anyone think of any actual costs? Unfortunately there is no substance in the "THE COST OF REGULATION" section.

New ISPs will have to, from day one and on top of all other laws and regulations they need to follow, comply, and be able to demonstrate compliance, with net neutrality.

People with more of a network background will please chip in whether this is easy?

Also, more speculatory:

Free-you're-the-product services are dominant in large swaths of the internet. Free-and-you-don't-pay-for-the-bits-you're-still-the-product could be up-and-coming, but Net Neutrality regulation would kill it off as obviously evil. Who knows, it could be an essential stepping stone towards people being paid for all the data they feed tech companies. Maybe Net Neutrality will lock in free-you're-the-product indefinitely.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#80

Yawn. Another libertarian who believes "The Market will Regulate itself." No matter how much proof you have to the contrary, you'll still have those claiming less regulations are better. Companies exist to make money. "Social Good" they claim are facades. Because at the end of the day, if "Illegal_fine*percentage_caught < Illegal Gains", they're going to do it. And we have not much further to look than Google/Amazon/…

EDIT: deleted

Right now, they already do.

With NN gone, you could have Facebook not just paying to zero-rate traffic, but to actively "double-rate" or "elimi-nate" traffic to competitors.

Hard to get in if your traffic's killed weeks or months in. And it makes acquisition nice and cheap - "Well, nobody's using your services, I'll give you $50k".

Post reply on HN