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House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

reuters.com

71–80 of 161 posts

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#71

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

>that is also assuming electric cars (in their current state) are less impactful than fossil fuel vehicles (which isn't the case) Is that true? Got a reference? The problem is that external costs like pollution are not being priced into the cost of ICE vehicles by, say, a pollution tax. This limited subsidy is a backhanded way of doing that. I don't see the issue with rich people benefiting from it, because it's exac…

A strong argument is that using an already existing car (buying used) is way better for the environment that creating a new car, regardless of the MPG.

Obviously if you play with the numbers (CO2 per mile driven, # of miles in life of car, CO2 per new car, expectation for expected reductions in total CO2 reduction by waiting if you want to get fancy) you can get it to tilt in either direction.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#72

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

>that is also assuming electric cars (in their current state) are less impactful than fossil fuel vehicles (which isn't the case) Is that true? Got a reference? The problem is that external costs like pollution are not being priced into the cost of ICE vehicles by, say, a pollution tax. This limited subsidy is a backhanded way of doing that. I don't see the issue with rich people benefiting from it, because it's exac…

Yes its true. I do not have a source handy so I'll have to rely on some other HN commenter to help me out.

Basically the math works like this:

An internal combustion cars cost X tons of carbon to produce. An an EV costs Y tons of carbon to produce. If you need a new car, it will probably require the same amount of carbon to produce an EV as a combustion car. But if you can drive a used car and extend its life 5, 10, 15 years, you save all the carbon of producing the car (which is where the majority of the carbon cost comes from).

> I don't see the issue with rich people benefiting from it, because it's exactly those rich people buying 100K Teslas that are paying for the cost of driving research into better battery technology and cheaper cars so everyone benefits from cleaner air and reduced global warming.

I love investing in technology. However, there's probably more efficient ways of doing it. Every dollar spent to help the rich could have been spent helping the poor, or the environment, or funding research.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#73
The correct solution here is not to get rid of the credit, but to introduce a phase out as income rises, so middle class car buyers benefit, but wealthy car buyers don't.

But that won't happen because the real goal of the proposal is to support the oil and gas industry, not to remove a subsidy to wealthy car buyers. As the article states, even the auto industry has come out against this.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#74
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The states and cities that are coming forward with ridiculous EV mandates should be the ones covering the subsidies, not the entire nation.

I disagree. Phasing out new production of C02 producing vehicles benefits everyone and by extension, failing to encourage it hurts everyone. This isn't a localized issue. It isn't like Texas (for instance) can produce as much carbon dioxide as they want, and it will only affect Texas.

Yet the state you criticize (Texas) is leading the country in green, renewable energy [1]

1. https://www.wsj.com/articles/which-state-is-a-big-renewable-...

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#76
post #36

If we just eliminated subsidies in the oil & gas world, I can promise you the economy will move towards renewable extremely fast. Make it a phase out of two - four years..., it would boost sales of EV's and our entire transportation network much more quick than EV tax credits would, AND, it would be a fair market for once! It would spur innovation, create many jobs, we would lead the world once again in regards towar…

What's the biggest specific subsidy of oil or gas right now that you know about?

When taking in account of direct and indirect subsidies, see this IMF report: http://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2015/09/28/04/53/sonew07...

There are many other reports by many other groups...

Also consider the costs of using tax payer money to pay for/subsidies infastructure/reasearch in the fossil fuel industry.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#77
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The states and cities that are coming forward with ridiculous EV mandates should be the ones covering the subsidies, not the entire nation.

Yeah! Pollution is a local problem! Definitely address it at the city level. Can we go further? Why not just have specific individuals who care about this funding the subsidies? /s

Have you visited LA recently? Pollution is very much a local problem. Why do you think it's cities leading the way on gasoline engine bans? I have no problem with these bans, but cities that take them up should be providing the incentive for switching, not offloading their problems on the rest of the country.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top tax rate is NOT going down. It remains at 39% under the proposal released by the House today.

The top marginal rate is the same, but because they're moving the brackets you can make twice as much money before you pay 39%(for a married couple)

And because taxes are marginal, that effectively becomes straight CA$H MONEY to everyone in the 39% bracket.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#79
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or even just fuel taxes that are sufficient to maintain vehicle infrastructure.

My fuel is already taxed - I pay about $0.59 tax per gallon in Virginia.

In Germany, you'd be paying $6.14 tax per gallon.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#80
Good. Both tax and subsidy distort market price and lead to deadweight loss.

And you can't realistically argue that some endeavors deserve taxpayer support while others have to rely on access to financial markets to get over the hump in their runway. The treasury department should not be picking winners and losers. Leave that to investors that have to put some of their own skin in the game.

The minimum damage to the economy occurs when a tax exactly matches the value of negative externalities pushed out onto the public, to be spent exclusively on cleaning them up, and when a subsidy matches any positive externality that the company hasn't managed to capture yet.

It isn't hard to think that any subsidy for electric vehicles should be scrapped, and within the bounds of the same public concern, replaced with a tax on emissions from combustion vehicles, to be used to make those engines already in service less polluting. The tax phases itself out, as people buy new vehicles that pollute less, and as they make already-paid-for repairs and retrofits on older vehicles.

With the subsidy, you have to turn it off manually whenever the desired economic effect has been achieved.

I have no idea what the motivation is behind subsidizing oil & gas. Encourage people to use engines instead of slave labor? Maybe use gas instead of coal? Whatever the reason is, it may have once favored the best side of a two-sided race, but with additional competitors joining the field, it no longer necessarily helps the best of them. That's why taxing the negative externalities almost always makes more sense, because the tax falls away without further intervention when that competitor exits. Like licensing horses to be inside a municipality, to cover the cost of cleanup when they poop on city streets. When people stop riding into town on horses, and start driving cars, the horse tax goes away without further effort.

There is also the possibility that an industry may never get over the hump in its runway. Do you want to keep it on life support forever? And if not, how do you decide when to pull the plug?

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