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Permissionless innovation

learnliberty.org

71–80 of 115 posts

Re: Permissionless innovation

#71
post #2

The author has a great interview on econtalk about this which I found very interesting.

As a long time econtalk listener I am kind of disappointed with this week's episode. I don't feel like they really elaborated beyond "we should have permissionless innovation"

Same here. It was my first episode of econtalk. There were thought provoking points; i.e. focusing more on systemic mistakes rather than small ones as a result of permitting decision making at the local level (a la N. Taleb). However, it could've been told in 1/3rd the duration. I'll give it another go given this episode might have been one off.

Re: Permissionless innovation

#72
Interesting that the article does not mention The Precautionary Principle [1], which is the opposite of 'permissionless innovation'. As an example, a society could decide that the rollout of driverless car technology would disrupt jobs and communities so severely that it either shouldn't be done or should be done slowly.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

Re: Permissionless innovation

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't remember if it was on HN or reddit, but there was a comment//post about how a job site operated similar to this. To heavily paraphrase over the gist of the second-hand account from the boss: "Our workplace will be rule-free until people start abusing it. When someone goes overboard, a rule against their abuse will be created under their name which will be applicable to everybody; if you think that rule bullsh…

The problem with this is as organisations get older they accrete more and more rules until you aren't allowed to do anything.

It's sometimes called organizational scar tissue. But what about making it an organizational scab instead? Have the damage-control rules in an organization be time-limited? Those freedoms people keep abusing would get repeated temporary restrictions and eventually a permanent ruling, but one-time problems would not weigh down the organization forever.

Re: Permissionless innovation

#74
post #21

It reminds me of an article I read years ago in a magazine about solar power. A guy decided to go off grid with solar panels and battery back up. He was living in Chicago. He called around to find out who regulated this sort of thing, where he needed to apply for permits or whatever. He learned that there wasn't a governing body. So he realized that as long as he didn't do anything stupid (a la burn the building down…

We have a bunch of regulations on that stuff in Chicago now. I don't know if it was the same guy, but some people got upset because they thought solar panels were super ugly. Here's a pdf (warning) of all of the hoops you need to jump through to install solar in Chicago: https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/bldgs/g... Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head from stuff I read in the paper five or mo…

> I don't know if it was the same guy, but some people got upset because they thought solar panels were super ugly.

This is a sad aspect of living in a high-density society. A lot of people are not only boring themselves, but they excessively want everyone else to be boring too.

Re: Permissionless innovation

#75
post #21

It reminds me of an article I read years ago in a magazine about solar power. A guy decided to go off grid with solar panels and battery back up. He was living in Chicago. He called around to find out who regulated this sort of thing, where he needed to apply for permits or whatever. He learned that there wasn't a governing body. So he realized that as long as he didn't do anything stupid (a la burn the building down…

Without some risk, however. You may never succeed in breaking the binds that keep us in the dark. I think the canonical example is something like the Wright Brothers first flight in Kitty Hawk, NC. Of course living in more agrarian times helps when you have an impromptu airport runway in your backyard. But the "permissionless innovation" theory probably concludes the reason we are not driving around in flying cars ju…

> But the "permissionless innovation" theory probably concludes the reason we are not driving around in flying cars just yet is precisely due to government hamstringing the great inventor.

I don't think the "permissionless innovation" theory is something to be applied in isolation. It only covers some aspects of human endeavour.

The reason we're not all in flying cars right now are twofold:

1. Flying is much less energy-efficient than driving on a solid surface, since you need to expend additional energy to maintain altitude.

2. Humanity as a whole has proven beyond doubt that regular people are nowhere near responsible enough to safely operate regular cars, and the kind of accidents that happen on the roads every day would have much more disastrous consequences if they happened in the air.

Self-driving tech might eventually solve 2., but we're not there yet today, so one can't blame governments for not allowing things that can not be done safely with today's technology. And even with 2. solved, the market still likely won't accept flying cars due to 1. A better/cheaper solution for vertical stacking of transport is the boring one[0].

> Particularly with strong AI the proposal comes up often: why not create a sandbox? Let the risk takers run their experiments and insulate the general public from their consequences.

With strong AI this proposal is particularly dumb for all the reasons covered under the search terms of "AI alignment problem", "AI control problem" and "unfriendly AI".

> Allocate a few abandoned oil rigs off the coast of Venezuela and let anyone with a rocket design attempt a launch ;)

See: Copenhagen Suborbitals. If you want to experiment with aerospace, it's generally doable, though expensive due to the nature of the task (and the fact that the difference between an orbital rocket and an ICBM is only in payload).

--

[0] - https://www.boringcompany.com

Re: Permissionless innovation

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet that also makes it so that innovation requires permission from your competitors, which is stifling.

No. It isn’t stifling at all. This is Patent 101. Joe has a patent on the widget. I can’t make a widget without violating his patent. I get a patent on an improved widget. Joe can’t manufacture the improvement. He’s incented to cooperate with me and I’m incented to innovate. Incented, not stifled. Just allowing copying incents manufacture but not innovation. Even China is moving in the IP direction.

Joe has a patent on the widget. You can't make an improved widget without either getting permission from Joe, or breaking patent law. So you don't invent your improved widget, you don't patent it, and if Joe is not interested in innovating, nobody else won't do it either. The world becomes poorer.

(In reality: enter China, who doesn't give a fuck and innovates anyway.)

(In real reality: unfortunately, the Chinese government is starting to enforce western IP more and more, due to economical pressures from the west.)

Re: Permissionless innovation

#77
post #69

I can't recall who said it (may have been Bart Simpson) but I've always liked the phrase. _"To truly innovate, one must be prepared to seek forgiveness not permission."_

Grace Hopper said something very much like that, and is generally credited for the expression of that attitude. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

Re: Permissionless innovation

#78
post #21

It reminds me of an article I read years ago in a magazine about solar power. A guy decided to go off grid with solar panels and battery back up. He was living in Chicago. He called around to find out who regulated this sort of thing, where he needed to apply for permits or whatever. He learned that there wasn't a governing body. So he realized that as long as he didn't do anything stupid (a la burn the building down…

I can't remember if it was on HN or reddit, but there was a comment//post about how a job site operated similar to this. To heavily paraphrase over the gist of the second-hand account from the boss: "Our workplace will be rule-free until people start abusing it. When someone goes overboard, a rule against their abuse will be created under their name which will be applicable to everybody; if you think that rule bullsh…

I'd never, ever consider working a place like that, as it places the power in the hand of managers who may decide something I consider perfectly reasonable is "abuse", and use this "under their name" bit to harass people. Which means I can't evaluate if the company will be a decent work place or a sweatshop.

To me, this is disrespectful to employees in the extreme. It shows a total disregard for the power disparity that exists, which makes rules more important for clarity for employees than for the company.

If they wanted to be respectful to their employees: Set rules, and create a mechanism for asking for exemptions and be lenient with the.

Otherwise they're asking me to trust that they will not abuse their power.

Re: Permissionless innovation

#79
post #21

It reminds me of an article I read years ago in a magazine about solar power. A guy decided to go off grid with solar panels and battery back up. He was living in Chicago. He called around to find out who regulated this sort of thing, where he needed to apply for permits or whatever. He learned that there wasn't a governing body. So he realized that as long as he didn't do anything stupid (a la burn the building down…

I can't remember if it was on HN or reddit, but there was a comment//post about how a job site operated similar to this. To heavily paraphrase over the gist of the second-hand account from the boss: "Our workplace will be rule-free until people start abusing it. When someone goes overboard, a rule against their abuse will be created under their name which will be applicable to everybody; if you think that rule bullsh…

"There are rules, but we don't tell you what they are. It is up to you to guess. Once the group think moves too much in wild direction, we will pick up someone we don't like and make him/her an example"

Re: Permissionless innovation

#80
post #77
post #69

I can't recall who said it (may have been Bart Simpson) but I've always liked the phrase. _"To truly innovate, one must be prepared to seek forgiveness not permission."_

Grace Hopper said something very much like that, and is generally credited for the expression of that attitude. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

Probably one of the most amazing and most important persons in the history of computing.

"The most dangerous phrase in the language is, "We've always done it this way."" sums up so many human-made problems, it's not even funny.

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