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Fiat vs. Bitcoin

fiatfate.com

71–77 of 77 posts

Re: Fiat vs. Bitcoin

#71

The way I understand money is to treat it as a technology. A technology is designed and operated to serve a purpose. The money of countries like the US and Europe is intended to serve as a medium of exchange, a temporary store of value, and a tool of government tax and monetary policy. I think it's expected that people will hold onto a minimum amount of money, and store the bulk of their wealth somewhere else. Most p…

I strongly disagree that it is a temporary store of value. People are much more likely to store wealth in fiat rather than gold. We are also quite happy to denominate long term debts in fiat currency.

Re: Fiat vs. Bitcoin

#72
thanks everyone for all the discussion in this thread. Being the author of this website, I would love to hear any suggestions - I will try to add more interesting stats in the future but keep it lean at the same time. Also I hope people read FAQ section on the website, I had tried to touch upon very common questions but in a different way so that it can make people think rather than running to conclusions quickly.

Re: Fiat vs. Bitcoin

#73
post #71

The way I understand money is to treat it as a technology. A technology is designed and operated to serve a purpose. The money of countries like the US and Europe is intended to serve as a medium of exchange, a temporary store of value, and a tool of government tax and monetary policy. I think it's expected that people will hold onto a minimum amount of money, and store the bulk of their wealth somewhere else. Most p…

I strongly disagree that it is a temporary store of value. People are much more likely to store wealth in fiat rather than gold. We are also quite happy to denominate long term debts in fiat currency.

In my view, people are more likely to store wealth in stocks and real estate. (This could be disproven by comparing the overall market value of those things). At the same time, we denominate long term debts in dollars because we have expectations (with risks) about the long term value of the dollar. Those expectations are baked into the interest rate.

And most people don't have any wealth to speak of.

Re: Fiat vs. Bitcoin

#74
post #69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming the merchant doesn't charge extra for using a credit card

Which they don't and also it's illegal. You can charge less for cash, but no one does that. (Except your one or two examples out of the thousands of stores)

>Which they don't and also it's illegal

source? because there are tons of gas stations that offer a "cash price" and a "debit/credit card" price.

Re: Fiat vs. Bitcoin

#75
post #69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming the merchant doesn't charge extra for using a credit card

Which they don't and also it's illegal. You can charge less for cash, but no one does that. (Except your one or two examples out of the thousands of stores)

It's not illegal, but it is against Visa and Mastercard's rules, to levy a fee or surcharge to use a credit card. What IS illegal is to prohibit merchants from offering a discount to induce customers to pay by cash or check, which is why merchants that do so don't end up having their Visa and Mastercard contracts cancelled.

Re: Fiat vs. Bitcoin

#76

I think that currency volatility won't be a problem in the future. Everything will be online and prices of items will update in real time to reflect supply and demand relative to any digital currency of your choice. It will be like in the old days when people used to haggle over the price of everything.

> I think that currency volatility won't be a problem in the future .... It will be like in the old days when people used to haggle over the price of everything. That does sound like a problem to me.

Don't worry, there will be algorithms that play the market by buying and stockpiling goods when their prices are low and sell them when their prices are high, smoothing out the supply/demand and taking a small margin in exchange for bearing that risk.

Then there will be services that virtualize that, with price insurance and the like.

Then there will be services that let you put in an order that will only buy something if its price goes below a certain level.

Then there will be services that let you put in a time-scale over which you want to buy something and make sure you get the best price while still getting the item within that time (including shipping price and time, of course).

Then there will be services that estimate all this for you.

I'm still waiting for someone to write the dystopian novel where you choose an "advertising agency" and they surveil you, automatically ordering everything you need/want based on your income, taste, preferences, etc.

Re: Fiat vs. Bitcoin

#77

By any reasonable definition, Bitcoin is a fiat currency. Unlike commodities like gold or silver, it has no inherent value whatsoever, and no applications for industrial use or jewellery. Bitcoin is a fiat currency because it only has value while some group of humans collectively agree to pretend that is has value. The same as dollars or yen.

The poor follow the rich, buying what they buy, wanting what they want. The rich look to the richer similarly. At the top however there is no one to look to except for the gods.

Just as flowers demonstrate more value than a toaster precisely because it shows a willingness to convert all value into prostration, so does a golden tower.

Gold is valuable because it is rare and pretty and most importantly useless. (industrial applications are minor and also only a modern application) flowers to toasters are gold to oil. Gold is pure concentrated and destroyed value. It is giving up of true value in the survival sense for spiritual or emotional value. Super expensive clothes or bags are similar and even take it to the next level in that they decay via fashion trend. It is even more destruction of value.

Diamonds similarly are more concentrated representations of value despite their market price being a sham. They serve an important purpose in signalling to find a person or thing that can give a person affirmations of value.

Bitcoin and other digital currencies can concentrate to an infinite degree but lack aesthetic qualities. It doesn't impress women and doesn't impress our current gods because it isn't visible and can't be used as a status symbol to strangers. ("Traditionally" the "strangers" that can affirm value are women and gods. )

Bitcoin is accessed via knowledge of a key and it traditionally hasn't been a status symbol. (Unless it was knowledge of culture) However there is currently a paradigm shift from "traditional" values that are human/social/god based to newer values that revolve around knowledge, technology and non-human specific interestingness.

Bitcoins growth initially was due to the futurist/cypherpunk movement. Other phases of growth include "early adopters" or "technologists". A recent large push has come from financial types who don't want to miss out and have traditionally used market signals to follow value without needing to understand underlying reasons.

The biggest push will need to come from all the value locked up in traditional storage but to do that a paradigm shift needs to happen where gold becomes valueless. I don't know if Bitcoin can do this yet. Perhaps when smart contracts start taking over the world and blurs the line between digital and non-digital. Forks however seem to muddy the signalling potential though. The mass of people who understand what a "vintage" Bitcoin needs to be big and btc doesn't have the uniqeness of collectibles like art or antiques.

In the end it's important to distinguish between symbols of value which often require destruction of value in their creation and actual value which serves some secular need. Symbols are built entirely on faith. Strangely, this can last much longer than "real" value. Salt and grain used to be real value but aren't anymore due to technology but gold has lasted thousands of years.

To require something to need "real" value is to ignore the importance of humans.

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