Live data from Hacker News

The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

blogs.scientificamerican.com

71–80 of 130 posts

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#71

Religion is dying, but spirituality is growing. I think the interesting part comes from our (and i say our, as in, the HN demographic) tendencies to hold strict beliefs based only on (and limited by) our own perceptions. The thing is, it comes at you when it comes at you, and you cant tell someone else why they should believe in something they cant see, feel, experiment with or experience. I was an atheist, almost mi…

> until something happens to you that pulls your perspective, your personal perspective, so far out of line with your current beliefs, you will never believe I would argue that these are the circumstances under which it is most important to push back against claims that are manifestly, self-evidently false according to basic empirical criteria.

> ...manifestly, self-evidently false according to basic empirical criteria.

Which is fine, as far as it goes. I think there's an argument to be made against Scientism, however, where people are rejecting notions that aren't "manifestly, self-evidently false", but instead aren't even falsifiable. How does that make sense? How can someone take that position, and still consider themselves rational?

Some of the greatest names in the history of science were also mystics. (I'm not talking about Newton being an alchemist and drinking mercury; I'm talking about the likes of Bohm, Einstein, Schrödinger, &c.) We've, instead, decided to repudiate that kind of thinking, and I think that costs us, dearly. The number of scientists of faith, who do perfectly legitimate science but have to hide their beliefs, is staggering, and, frankly, offensive. We have failed if that's how we want to play.

Yes, defending the credulous from the predatory, a stated motivation of so many anti-religionists, is a valuable thing. It should be lauded. So very, very many of the anti-religionists I've met are profoundly smug about their beliefs, though. That's not valuable. That serves no-one. That is actively harmful.

Anything that creates a narrative where you're somehow "better than" the people around you, is mental garbage. It's an ego trap. It should be shouted down far more loudly than whether or not people believe in an invisible man in the sky who watches them masturbate, if that belief is not subsequently used to disenfranchise and dehumanize others — not least because that very "better than"-ness is the root of how we disenfranchise and dehumanize one another.

Hard atheists are often among the most vocally, militantly, confrontationally proselytizing people I've ever seen. The irony is really ugly.

EDIT: phrasing

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#72

I just wanted to come here and show some respect for religious communities that work very hard to help people and the world become a better place. On hacker news, I would hope we can be rational and respectful about beliefs that are important to (many real and good) people. There are many religious people/beliefs that I agree with - and many I disagree with - we can discuss that like adults. But sarcastic, unkind rem…

can we not say anything about the ones that ruin people’s lives? or is that too unkind? sorry for being unkind to people who abandon their gay kids.

That's just one, and very unfortunate, aspect of some religions. Other seem to be very happy with gay kids.

When you ask someone like the Dalai Lama difficult questions such as ones about euthanasia or abortion - where traditional religious views and modern progressive outlook differ - you probably won't get an answer you'll like, but at the very least you'll receive a reasonable explanation behind it. And fortunately we're free and don't need to follow any religion. However, if you make the decision to follow it, you need to respect its rules, that's all.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#73

Coming Apart by Charles Murray is an incredibly important book that goes into detail about this including immense amounts of statistical data. The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse. I understand the average HN reader is probably areligious (the book goes into the class dynamics of why th…

Might as well mention that the book's full title is "Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010", and that Murray is best known for his controversial comments about race in his book The Bell Curve.

Suffice it to say, Murray's version of the "core of American civilization" is something I'd be very happy to see disintegrate. I doubt I'm the only one.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#74

Religion is dying, but spirituality is growing. I think the interesting part comes from our (and i say our, as in, the HN demographic) tendencies to hold strict beliefs based only on (and limited by) our own perceptions. The thing is, it comes at you when it comes at you, and you cant tell someone else why they should believe in something they cant see, feel, experiment with or experience. I was an atheist, almost mi…

> until something happens to you that pulls your perspective, your personal perspective, so far out of line with your current beliefs, you will never believe I would argue that these are the circumstances under which it is most important to push back against claims that are manifestly, self-evidently false according to basic empirical criteria.

Your empirical data is limited by our perception.

Do you really think we know all of the forces at work, that we can perceive them or detect them with the tools we have?

Its rather arrogant to think that we know even "most" of how the universe works, let alone all of it... and if you can admit that we know very little overall, then the empirical data we do have has a lot less weight...

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#75

I just wanted to come here and show some respect for religious communities that work very hard to help people and the world become a better place. On hacker news, I would hope we can be rational and respectful about beliefs that are important to (many real and good) people. There are many religious people/beliefs that I agree with - and many I disagree with - we can discuss that like adults. But sarcastic, unkind rem…

I'll acknowledge the hard work and kindness of (some) religious people if you'll acknowledge that we are talking about beliefs that are very obviously not true.

This isn't mean to be sarcastic, it's a statement about the special treatment that religion gets. Some of us simply do not agree that the best approach to this is to hold hands and discuss it like adults -- for all of the hard work and kindness you mention, there is also quite a lot of bad stuff too. It's far from obvious that the good outweighs the bad.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#76
post #58

Coming Apart by Charles Murray is an incredibly important book that goes into detail about this including immense amounts of statistical data. The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse. I understand the average HN reader is probably areligious (the book goes into the class dynamics of why th…

Seems a bit convenient to his point of view. Western democracy is much more strongly associated with Greek city-states like Athens and the ancient Greek leagues than Judeo-Christian theology.

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

George Washington's Farewell Address https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington%27s_Farewell...

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#77

Isn't the same true of membership-based organizations in general? I'm a member of 5-6 national and international membership societies, not including my church, and they are taking huge hits, especially those that are still spending like they did in the 1990s. I was surprised to get an email just after one conference: "We have run out of funds." Well, oops. But seriously, it's kind of depressing.

I have seen a lot of lack of recruitment as well, or completely misunderstanding why people came in the first place. There's also a lot of organizations that had an 'expected trajectory' when it came to regular recruitment and they never recalibrated to accommodate the lack of growth. I just think that in this current moment in time it is very difficult to show that investing time in a group is going to have a payoff at all. I know I have fought this when looking at whether or not to go to even a small regional event because the opportunity cost seems to always be too high. Another personal factor is the realization I probably will have to move out of the region for my next job in 3 years and I am only meeting these people once a month. That's 36 times I ran into someone and I am probably not in a meaningful way.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#78

Materialism, theism and atheism are all religions.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that not golfing is a sport.

Quippy but untrue. "Not golfing" doesn't have news articles, blogs, apologetic tomes, influential figure-heads, social gatherings (online and offline), charitable organizations and all sorts of life and energy-consuming efforts dedicated to it.

Atheism is indeed the religion of man, who has set himself on his own throne, denied the existence of a Creator, and crowned himself god - deciding that HE will be the arbiter of right and wrong. The same forms of worship (investments of time, energy, money, etc) that can be devoted to the Divine are simply channeled inward in a self-righteous pursuit of independence.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#79
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can we not say anything about the ones that ruin people’s lives? or is that too unkind? sorry for being unkind to people who abandon their gay kids.

No because while religion is used to try to justify that, the real cause is just shitty people

how? does their book not say to stone gay people? if anything those people are better than their religion because they don’t stone gays, just discriminate. in fact, to be a good christian, by definition, one must hate gays. otherwise you are against your own holy text.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#80

I wonder what kinds of communities will replace religious communities. I worry that people may tie their identities to political tribes more and more. What communities provide a healthy sense of identity and belonging that are not religious or political?

Many gaming and entertainment communities are springing up to offer sense of collective identity and belonging.

Gaming, has large, relatively recent communities in Pokemon Go and DOTA 2. Similarly, the resurgence of the Star Wars franchise means a new generation of fans coming online.

I have not noticed that these entertainment focused communities result in service, though they are also not political.

Post reply on HN