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Why is computer science a sausage fest?

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Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#71

Post by astartup1 »

dieterrams wrote: post #10
kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

"I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudiment…

It can be put as an dis-advantage. What girls are doing when men are wasting 100s of hours playing video games.

Doesn't that count as positive for girls.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#72

Post by philwelch »

Confusion wrote: post #70
philwelch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fallacious arguments don't suddenly become good arguments when they're used to justify good conclusions. Hence, when I say "X is a bad argument for conclusion Y", don't interpret that as "I disagree with conclusion Y". In reality, I just hate sloppy reasoning. When you say That's why your argument is wrong: we're trying to offset discrimination against women here and we're not trying to defend the continued discrimin…

Ah, I understand. Well, there you have a another trap, which I now fell into: mistaking the pointing out of a fallacious argument for support of the argument to which it was a response.

Sorry if my response seemed overzealous. I run into this problem a lot.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#73

Post by othermaciej »

It's interesting to compare to the proportion of women in or entering other "traditionally male" fields that are often seen as having a "boys club" atmosphere:

- ~21% of practicing software engineers and ~21% of CS degree recipients are women. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/298007/Making_I...

- ~25% of practicing lawyers and 44% of law students are women. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4197736.html

- 30% of doctors and 42% of med students are women. http://www.uslaw.com/library/article/ABAWomenJustice.html

It seems that medicine and law are significantly more effective at recruiting female students, and somewhat less so but still significantly more effective at attracting women to the workforce.

Is there anything CS has to learn from these professions that are often seen as "macho", individualistic, and prone to long work hours?

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#74

Post by philwelch »

Tichy wrote: post #64
derefr wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're completely right, of course—but I have to point out that elementary education is a "vagina fest", and not even a self-selected one. There is definite discrimination preventing men from entering the field—mostly by parents who don't want men around their kids.

I seriously doubt that is the reason - on the contrary, I constantly hear that people would like more male teachers. However, I don't think the salary is sufficient to feed a family. Not sure if that is the main reason, but it might be a factor in men's decisions.

There's a massive witchhunt against pedophiles that keeps a lot of men out of most occupations dealing with children.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#75

Post by ddewey »

Pro: I understand the reasoning behind affirmative action better after reading this quote: "People mistakenly assume that affirmative action is about granting minorities undeserved privileges. In it’s purist form, affirmative action is about allowing minorities natural talents to flourish by removing artificial, unfair barriers and decoupling the true skills required to succeed in a profession from the cultural baggage that builds naturally within an insular community."

Con: The author seems to try to be fair, but quickly falls into the trap of characterizing men in the field as "socially-challenged-uber-nerd[s]". She says that "a lot of men would rather not live like code-cowboys", but goes on to recite a litany of bad traits that are "masculine qualities" and contrasts them with the traits of a "good developer". That's a good way to alienate male readers who would otherwise be sympathetic. Perhaps men do advocate for themselves more actively in the workplace, and that should be corrected for by affirmative action; saying that men "pester the boss until she finally relents to send them to a conference" doesn't accomplish anything.

Con: spelling.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#76

Post by [deleted] »

philwelch wrote: post #30

On someone's complaint about Google setting up a special grant program for women, OP writes: This stinks of jealousy. Why not be happy for the female students? Why rain on someone else’s parade? Something good happening to someone else seems to disgust fringley. Frankly, it comes off as childish. That's a terrible argument. Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? "So what if all the nice houses and neigh…

[deleted]

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#77

Post by monos »

kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

It doesn't translate to coding skills, but the underlying task is similar:

You must act in a system with lots of arbitrary, human-made rules and must figure out the rules and how to use them to your advantage.

The difference to other games - board or sports - is that figuring out the rules is usually part of the game. They are never - fully - explained to you.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#78

Post by [deleted] »

alanh wrote: post #39
adamesque wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, they're _not_ just assumptions of sexism. You should at least skim the MIT study she refers to in her article ( http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html ). It was an eye-opening, empirical study showing that discrimination did exist – and that it didn't look like ordinary bigotry. I can't help but think that it's only possible to get worked up about reverse discrimination if you don't believe that the "forward…

You’re absolutely right about “the only way people would get worked up about reverse discrimination,” of course. What I object to is her assigning evil intentions to people she’s never met.

[deleted]

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#79

Post by gwern »

AndyKelley wrote: post #47
gwern wrote: post #2

As usual, I like Philip Greenspun's explanation better than all of the anecdotes and fuzzy generalizations in this blog post: http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science tl;dr: It's because the women who would do well in CS/STEM have much better paying, or easier, or more prestigious options available to them.

The problem I have with that logic is, why wouldn't men decide the same thing? The author's reasoning seems to be 1. young men strive to achieve high status among their peer group 2. men tend to lack perspective and are unable to step back and ask the question "is this peer group worth impressing?" but I ask, why? The article seems to be rejecting the idea that men are naturally better than women at programming (and…

> men are naturally better than women at programming (and some other ideas) and embracing the idea that women are naturally better than men at finding a suitable career.

If it's plausible enough that millions of young women can have their career and life choices distorted away from STEM by a little sexism (a distortion in the dozens or scores of percents), then why isn't it even more plausible that millions of young men can suffer from well-known traits linked with autism or Asperger's (which are known to be vastly more common in males) and make choices distorted towards STEM?

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#80

Post by tom_ilsinszki »

This might be a risky comment for me, but I'll bite the bullet.

Why I'd like to see more female developers?

* I wanted to have more women (girls) around at university. Yes, one reason is sexual attraction (I hope it's not a problem, that I mention this, but I am a human being after all), but I also found that girls are an essential part of how human groups are formed. You might become really good friends with another guy at uni, just because you like hanging around the same girl at the beginning; on the other hand, you might not chat up and start hanging out with that other guy initially.

* It would be far healthier for (young) people to socialize in a mixed environment.

* A lot of women that I know are more social and caring than me in day to day communication. I'd also love to have and learn more of that.

* Women tend to think differently. They have a different approach to problems, which is what teams are all about; having people with many different approaches, so that when a there is a problem, someone can think of the easiest possible solution.

What I'm not sure I like about this post, is that it seems defensive. Tries to prove that "there are female developers who are just as good as men" too hard, while it forgets to focus on what women are better at, and also what the tech community would win if we all _actively_ knew that the community needs more women.

I'd love to work in a mixed community of men and women.

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