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How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

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Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#71

Post by sliverstorm »

logic wrote: post #12
mkramlich wrote: post #6

Horrible story, and I totally empathize with their situation. yes, the US is practically insane sometimes in how they deal with sexuality and minors, and yes there's a history of witch hunts in this area. all horrible. That said, they did make 2 very big mistakes, and if they hadn't done either or both of them, none of the rest would have happened. first, they took pictures of the kids naked. two, they let those pict…

My parents had childhood pictures of me, developed through the local grocery store, completely naked aside from a few layers of mud and a huge grin on my face. My teenage self might not have appreciated the opportunity to grandstand in such a manner quite as much. (I honestly thought I'd found and destroyed all of the copies. My parents were much sneakier than I gave them credit for.) My adult self thinks it's all ra…

I don't agree that they made zero mistakes. Not exactly that I would call it a 'mistake'- that implies they were hiding from something from the start- but why, why were there photos of children drinking beer? Especially considering their children are 3 and 8 yo? Even in cultures much much more loose about alcohol, most don't give it to children in the single-digit age range. Hell, even if there were no laws and regulations on the stuff, I'd be extremely uneasy giving a child that young alcohol, unless it was just a taste. At 135lbs, half a beer can make me woozy if I haven't eaten. Small children are 1/2 to 1/3 of my weight.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#72

Post by ErrantX »

loewenskind wrote: post #57

Why wasn't the Clerk investigated for child pornography/molestation? If you look at a picture of naked kids in non-sexual situations and think you're seeing something sexual then there is something wrong with you. Full stop. Either you've been abused, you're an abuser yourself or you've been horribly brain washed. Any of these possibilities makes you more of a risk than the person who shot the photos. Taking this a s…

That's absurd; there is a distinct difference between seeing something that concerns you and becoming sexually aroused by said image. To suggest they are "consumers of child pornography" is just a bit rude...

For the untrained eye such photo's as in this case may have shocked him/her and prompted the knee-jerk reaction of calling the police. You are right in part; I think the main problem is that, absurdly, any images of naked children are starting to worry people. Part of that is founded in fact; you will find people with thousands of images of different children running around naked on beaches/parks/camping trips. But, clearly, in this case it is just a family camping trip and the clerk has either refused or is unable to process that.

I recall that a few years ago I was taking pics at a family wedding and happened, while taking shots of my cousins running round playing, to take a shot which included my youngest cousin doing a handstand with her skirt over her head. It was a completely innocent picture; and if I was ever investigated for CP it would never be flagged as CP - but my Aunt was absolutely insistent I should delete the photo.

And that is the sort of society we live in.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#73

Post by ErrantX »

sliverstorm wrote: post #71
logic wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents had childhood pictures of me, developed through the local grocery store, completely naked aside from a few layers of mud and a huge grin on my face. My teenage self might not have appreciated the opportunity to grandstand in such a manner quite as much. (I honestly thought I'd found and destroyed all of the copies. My parents were much sneakier than I gave them credit for.) My adult self thinks it's all ra…

I don't agree that they made zero mistakes. Not exactly that I would call it a 'mistake'- that implies they were hiding from something from the start- but why, why were there photos of children drinking beer? Especially considering their children are 3 and 8 yo? Even in cultures much much more loose about alcohol, most don't give it to children in the single-digit age range. Hell, even if there were no laws and regul…

but why, why were there photos of children drinking beer?

According to the article there was not - it was one of the children carrying a broken beer bottle.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#74

Post by dan00 »

Sometimes I'm pretty scared of the missing of common sense and disgusted by the people who are "just" doing their job, without compunction what this might imply for other people.

It's a confession of failure for a society, if the determinant of acting is fear.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#75

Post by sliverstorm »

ErrantX wrote: post #73
sliverstorm wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree that they made zero mistakes. Not exactly that I would call it a 'mistake'- that implies they were hiding from something from the start- but why, why were there photos of children drinking beer? Especially considering their children are 3 and 8 yo? Even in cultures much much more loose about alcohol, most don't give it to children in the single-digit age range. Hell, even if there were no laws and regul…

but why, why were there photos of children drinking beer? According to the article there was not - it was one of the children carrying a broken beer bottle.

Aha! That makes more sense.

Yes, I confess, I did skim the middle/end a little bit.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#76

Post by ErrantX »

sgt wrote: post #44
elbrodeur wrote: post #10

This is tremendously disturbing, but according to the article pretty common. It's a tough line. On the one hand, nobody wants children to suffer. If at all possible, every child should be protected from abuse. I think the key, as the author elaborates on, is education. Knowing the difference between a crazy hippy family and pedophiles seems like common sense -- but if you, as an uneducated clerk at a crappy CVS in th…

In practice it just doesn't work very well sometimes. I think it's better to risk letting more child abusers off the hook, than potentially ruining the lives of decent parents like these.

This was a particularly clear cut case where the parents had done absolutely nothing wrong.

That is unusual (at least in my experience) and, yes, we need to avoid these cases.

But how do you treat the 8 year old who makes accusations about her father; how much do you have to believe before investigating him? How certain do you have to be that she may be lying before dropping the case? This is the main area of unjust investigations remaining (at least in the UK) and it is troublesome how to find the safe medium.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#77

Post by sliverstorm »

nagrom wrote: post #68
mkramlich wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "normal" is subjective and varies by person and society. Would you agree with that? Some people don't think it's normal to want to photograph children naked. Others do. Some may not think it's abnormal, but on the other hand think it is not wise. Clearly, you think it's okay to do. Or you just think it is not unwise, or should not be banned. Those are each distinct nuanced states of mind on the matter. That's…

It's terrifying because your position is that one shouldn't do something that is entirely harmless and innocent, for fear that you will be branded for life as something evil. It's even more terrifying because your position appears to be tacit acceptance of that situation. Some things should not have to be worked around. Some things are wrong, and should be decried. A situation where parents are scared to photograph a…

You can crack jokes in the airport about bombing planes, and carry bundles of wire in your luggage, and fight the system. Jokes are harmless and innocent, and you should be allowed to make them. Stand up against the injustice.

Or, you could simply not do those things and get on your flight and on with your life.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#78

Post by sliverstorm »

dotBen wrote: post #29
mkramlich wrote: post #6

Horrible story, and I totally empathize with their situation. yes, the US is practically insane sometimes in how they deal with sexuality and minors, and yes there's a history of witch hunts in this area. all horrible. That said, they did make 2 very big mistakes, and if they hadn't done either or both of them, none of the rest would have happened. first, they took pictures of the kids naked. two, they let those pict…

Yes, I completely agree with the naivity aspect. As I read this I thought to myself "if you've bought a disposable camera that will need to be professionally developed why are you taking naked photos of your children?". Use a digital camera or skip the nakedness. It's like me (a pasty faced white geek) taking my sports car out for a cruise around Bay Shore and Hunters Point here in San Francisco (big crime, gang and…

Similarly, a friend and I were up in the mountains (halfway between our houses) once late at night on the side of the road to talk about some heavy stuff in our lives.

Pair of police cruisers pulled over completely unprompted and confronted us, ran our registration and driver's licences, and gave us a lecture on speeding & racing.

I don't blame them, and in fact I'm happy they were doing that, especially as they weren't assholes about it. They are trying to fight the death rate up there, and as they can't be everywhere at once, they were just doing all they could to proactively prevent. I think it'd be totally unreasonable to get upset over that. Sure, it'd have been a bit nicer of an evening if the cops didn't pay us a visit, but we were giving off some warning signs (being there late in coupes) so they checked us out, end of story.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#79

Post by jacquesm »

kls wrote: post #13

I had a similar run in with DCF, not for child pornography but for accusations of child abuse. I helped out a high school friend who had become a heroin addict (I had no idea what I was getting into), by letting his family and himself live with me while he tried to recover. It ended up that this was a common scam with him and his wife and they use a sob story to get friends to help them out and once they wear out the…

I guess that's proof positive that no good deed goes unpunished. What bothers me most about this story is that the organization that is nominally in charge of the welfare of children actually achieves the exact opposite by their behviour.

These people ought to be summarily dismissed for gross incompetence. I'm happy it wasn't me under investigation if there is one thing that gets my dander up it is abuse of power like that.

Kudos to you for keeping your cool.

Re: How to Destroy Someone's Life or They called me a child pornographer

#80

Post by loewenskind »

ErrantX wrote: post #72
loewenskind wrote: post #57

Why wasn't the Clerk investigated for child pornography/molestation? If you look at a picture of naked kids in non-sexual situations and think you're seeing something sexual then there is something wrong with you. Full stop. Either you've been abused, you're an abuser yourself or you've been horribly brain washed. Any of these possibilities makes you more of a risk than the person who shot the photos. Taking this a s…

That's absurd; there is a distinct difference between seeing something that concerns you and becoming sexually aroused by said image. To suggest they are "consumers of child pornography" is just a bit rude... For the untrained eye such photo's as in this case may have shocked him/her and prompted the knee-jerk reaction of calling the police. You are right in part; I think the main problem is that, absurdly, any image…

>That's absurd; there is a distinct difference between seeing something that concerns you and becoming sexually aroused by said image. To suggest they are "consumers of child pornography" is just a bit rude...

What is absurd is a situations where natural actions (taking photos of your children) become, randomly, life ruining [1]. You say my suggestion is rude but this is in fact exactly what happened to the author of the story. If one of these two people (the author or the clerk) had to have their life ruined because of the chance that they might be dangerous I would pick the clerk as he/she is actually exhibiting bizarre behavior.

Further, having an extreme reaction to natural things indicates some kind of problem. I can't know if the clerk was sexually aroused by the photos, felt guilty and reacted extremely to fight against those feelings that he/she knew were wrong. I can only see the extreme action they took. I can't know what triggered it, but it's definitely a problem and more worthy of looking into than the random innocent by-stander who triggered this persons episode.

[1] If this were isolated it might not be such a huge issue, but it's happening quite a lot (relatively). Remember the recent case where photos of a 17 year old girl in a bikini were investigated as child pornography? What about the guy who was naked in his house making breakfast and was accused of being an exhibitionist? Couple this with the insane "child abuser register" the US has and things look pretty alarming.

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