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What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

washingtonpost.com

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Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#71

Post by ahelwer »

katastic wrote: post #55
ahelwer wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Spreading grades out among various assignments and tests is how I managed to pass university (I coincidentally also attended the University of Calgary, hi rdlecler1!). I would have imploded if it all came down to a single giant exam. Why the heck would you want academic achievement to come down to a handful of hours of actual performance? What goal does that serve? University isn't the Olympics.

The true answer is: No grades should matter except the final exam and you should be able to take the final exam as many times as you want. (With a reasonable minimum period between retakes, possibly increasing each time.) If you take AC motors, and fail, and study your ass off and six months later can pass it with 100%, shouldn't that really be... your actual grade? Isn't a grade supposed to represent your ability an…

A grade is supposed to represent your ability and understanding of a topic, but that's only half the equation. Are exams an adequate proxy for ability and understanding of a topic? They aren't for me. When I want to understand something, I create something which requires and demonstrates that understanding - this could be a Wikipedia article, a piece of software, or a lecture. Nothing of value is demonstrated by sitting down for a few hours under extreme pressure and regurgitating my "understanding".

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#72

Post by devopsproject »

ryandrake wrote: post #63

The silliness, of course, is that if you are among the "elite" and "privileged" going to an Ivy League school, nobody is going to give a shit about your grades anyway. Your career and success is already pre-ordained. Why on earth would you bother arguing with your professor that your "A-" should be an "A"? You're going to go to work at your daddy's investment bank after you graduate either way! You think big name ban…

> Why on earth would you bother arguing with your professor that your "A-" should be an "A"?

because someone is paying good money for that "A"

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#73

Post by leggomylibro »

irrational wrote: post #14
NumberSix wrote: post #9

The article ends with: It’s a system that polishes privilege, its byproduct a contempt for earned authority. Many of the people who started with this attitude had it ratified and encouraged by perhaps the most prestigious university in the world — and now they’re running the whole show. Emphasis on now added. Who in their right mind thinks people who attend Harvard and a handful of other elite universities and prep s…

Is Harvard really considered more prestigious than Oxford or Cambridge? That doesn't follow my perception.

Well, Oxford and Cambridge are older.

And an institution with thousands of dead people behind it is obviously going to be more prestigious than one with mere hundreds. Huge, weighty anchors biting into the benthic depths of our past - that's how you get to be a Prestigious Institution of global Renown.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#74

Post by bllguo »

ahelwer wrote: post #48
thomasahle wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when the grades given on assignments influence what goes on your final exam papers. At a university, only the final exam should count. This way you can give honest feedback, and the student doesn't feel obligated to point out every little mistake to try to make you change your decision. It also allows them to misunderstand things at first, but then 'get' it later. Of course universities don't like this…

Really? Spreading grades out among various assignments and tests is how I managed to pass university (I coincidentally also attended the University of Calgary, hi rdlecler1!). I would have imploded if it all came down to a single giant exam. Why the heck would you want academic achievement to come down to a handful of hours of actual performance? What goal does that serve? University isn't the Olympics.

That's a strong counterargument. But I strongly believe homework shouldn't be graded. Incentives are completely misaligned; you're penalized for getting things wrong, when that's a natural result during the learning process. No surprise, then, when cheating becomes a major problem.

I personally found doing problem sets and being able to check my answers immediately to be the best way to learn. There's no point to just copy the answers if homework is ungraded. If students feel no motivation to do homework to learn and practice, that's on them, especially at the college level.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#75

Post by jeremiep »

cm2187 wrote: post #61
plussed_reader wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it?

If they pay higher tuition fees, it should put more pressure on the kids (through their parents or their creditor) to graduate.

For a lot of students its their parents paying, they'll only realize the value of it all decades later.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#76

Post by collegestoo »

cm2187 wrote: post #61
plussed_reader wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it?

If they pay higher tuition fees, it should put more pressure on the kids (through their parents or their creditor) to graduate.

This is also true of colleges to return a good return on investment. Also, their financial aid is already comparable (thinking of Standord specifically); I don't think it makes sense to speculate in the direction you're speculating any more than other directions.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#77

Post by buchanaf »

ryandrake wrote: post #63

The silliness, of course, is that if you are among the "elite" and "privileged" going to an Ivy League school, nobody is going to give a shit about your grades anyway. Your career and success is already pre-ordained. Why on earth would you bother arguing with your professor that your "A-" should be an "A"? You're going to go to work at your daddy's investment bank after you graduate either way! You think big name ban…

While I didn't go to an Ivy, that's clearly not true. Do you honestly think Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Goldman, law schools, medical schools, etc., are going to accept you if you have poor grades? Not everyone can count on "daddy".

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#79

Post by WillPostForFood »

tptacek wrote: post #45
jforman wrote: post #41

This article has very little basis in reality based on my experience at Harvard as an undergrad and at Princeton as a grad student and TA. Yes, students are arrogant and push for grades quite a bit. But I saw zero evidence of systemic catering to them as a whole or to any specific sub-population. I imagine the Development Office (the folks who would cater to the ultra powerful) may get involved in extreme cases? But…

When you say "very little basis in reality", you mean "disagrees with my own experience". The difference between those two phrases isn't subtle. The author is relating their own actual experience teaching at Harvard, and the directly related experiences of other teachers.

The parent is relating their own actual experience to you. Which you chose to believe is more a product of confirmation bias than reality. The author of the article, so I'll be generous and suggest she liberally is using poetic license with the truth to make a point. Do you really believe this is how the supposed incident happened? "Then, in front of the student, he pressed me to explain the reason for my poor teaching."

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#80

Post by tetromino_ »

plussed_reader wrote: post #53
apetresc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's favoritism, and then there's pragmatism. This seems like very sound advice.

You say pragmatism, but I read cronyism. In this case the Rugby coach would be a crony for moneyed interests.

Alternative interpretation - the rugby coach was helping seattleeng's friend by alerting him in advance to the fact that moneyed interests would make the friend's life hell if he were to seriously injure one of their own.
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