kids that cheat are more likely to be praised for being smart.
Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
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Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#72I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.
I see people say this on HN a lot. And even people saying they have the same behavior but with the opposite impetus, like one of my comment's siblings.
I think it's more likely that praise had little to do with your behavior, and you would've been the same regardless. I think it's tempting to backsplain our behavior with things we happen to remember from our past.
For example, pretty much everyone struggles with their own attention span and learning new things.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…
In some classes, where grades can be determined purely subjectively, instructors can use effort-based logic as a guiding principle. The problems, however, are multifold. I remember a high school art class where I just had a complete writers-block - or maybe artists-block - and was not able to do much on a large pencil drawing while sitting in class. I just couldn't work while seated in rows with everyone else sketchi…
Seems like a decent life lesson though. I wonder how this would have played out if you communicated with your teacher. Either telling them you were having trouble being productive in class, or When you turned in your work by telling him how much work you put in at home.
It's important that you tell people how much effort you spend on things when they don't see it happen. It's true in so many ways; you learned it early.
Also I'd add that something like art class is particularly hard to grade because you don't want to let the naturally gifted coast through. You want to hold everyone to higher individual standards. The teacher may have thought this must have been easy for you and if you put in more effort it could have been way better. Not always right, but sounds like that was the info available to him.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#74I don't think it's worth praising effort nor results. The real thing that should be praised imo is measurable improvement.
What does that mean in practice, though? Take learning: is simply having learned more an improvement? Then almost any kid qualifies. Is it learning better/faster than before? Then what happens when the kid reaches a very high level and eventually plateaus? Do you stop praising them despite being one of the best?
That's more of a pedagogical question than one with a concrete answer. To your last point: I don't think being the best is something that merits praise, necessarily. A 10000% improvement, whatever that means to you, is probably more "impressive" than being the best, but only seeing fractional gains.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…
That's insane. When I "make an effort" to pay a parking ticket on time and I don't, nobody gives me a shiny sticker star - I have to pay double instead. EDIT: People, I said nothing about children paying parking tickets or about poor people. My comment is an example of a self-inflicted problem that is exacerbated by self-inflicted delay, to which the consequences must be borne by the individual as is the nature of li…
I got a parking ticket for parking on the wrong side of the street during plow season (even days one side, odd the other). I had habitually moved my car on the 31st-1st transition.
The judge or magistrate reduced the fine by the maximum amount they could when I explained that I had made a simple error while trying to follow the parking rule.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#76I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.
I think that's probably more personality than anything else. I was always told I was smart and was never motivated. Perfect example: I took the ACT only once because I scored a 30 and it wasn't worth it for me to try to improve that score. Meanwhile, all of my honors & AP class friends took it several times scoring 33s, 34s, & 35s. This was a direct result of my "intelligence complex" and yet I have no trouble learni…
It's probably because the first 80% is really easy to learn so you get all the gratification of "being smart", without ever having to do anything difficult.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#77I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.
A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…
The point is not to choose between praising for effort or praising for results. It is to praise for effort instead of results when the results are good.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#78May be an unpopular take on this, but maybe something to think about. There are many things in school that amount to being "busy work" or pointless excercises. Is it possible that intellegent kids see through the bs and want to short cut what they perceive to be a waste of their time? Now the article is light on details about the kinds of cheating that occurs, so I dont know that fully explains it. I could see receiving praise and validation akin to a drug and wanting to continue receiving that.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#79Perhaps there's a third way.
My parents didn't praise us so much for our efforts, nor for "achievements", but they were really excited about the things and projects we were doing. It was like the whole universe was full of exciting things to be discovered and mastered.
For example, if we were going down a river in a canoe, my dad wasn't talking about how much work we kids were doing, or how skilled we were. He was talking about the amazing eagles, herons, hawks, and water moccasins we were seeing, and how to best shoot the rapids, and what the difference wave shapes meant about the rocks underneath. We kids didn't learn and work at canoeing because we would be praised if we did well. We wanted to explore and master the river!
I've found in teaching that moving the focus off the student and onto whatever amazing thing we are learning about works really well - both with kids and adults.
Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…
The point is people usually get better objective results if you praise their relative effort. Employers are obviously interested in grades that reflect the objective skill level of the to-be-employed. The problem is people subconsciously build up explanations for their observed performance. If a kid routinely has a hard time with maths, its more probable that they develop a causal model that puts themselves in a stat…
> Employers are obviously interested in grades that reflect the objective skill level of the to-be-employed.
Employers are hardly interested in grades at all. Do you know anyone that does? Society uses grades as a selector for higher education pretty much exclusively. This is a goal for which we can objectively measure its relevance. I suspect there's a thing or two to learn from that.