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EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

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Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#71

Post by 3pt14159 »

ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

Just apply for Nexus. You're harmless. They'll do supreme vetting once and you'll avoid any stupid power tripping boarder guards after that. Since I got that I've spent under 5 mins at the boarder each time.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#72

Post by ue_ »

iamatworknow wrote: post #46
ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) a…

You know, I have to say something about this:

>I have only ever personally heard of one case of someone having their electronics searched, and the extent of the search was Canadian customs using the Windows search to look for files with "boy" or "girl" in the filename -- presumably looking for child porn.

This is horrible - not beacuse of the child porn aspect, but because Canada has draconian laws (though so do Britain, Aus and NZ) which mean that drawings are prohibited. Drawings of fictional characters, that is. I read a story, though mere anectode, I hope it is relevant - about a man who was arrested beacuse they found they found drawings in his cache. He didn't even like the material. A US citizen that was crossing the border and searched beacuse he looked "suspicious".

We should not excuse this violation of freedom of expression just because it happens/happened at the border. Canada has laws that it deserves to be called out on.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#73

Post by Raynak »

martinflack wrote: post #22
meri_dian wrote: post #6

If they can search your bags without a warrant at the border, why can't they search your phone or laptop? Edit: Contraband can be both physical and digital. If the government can conduct searches for physical contraband then searches for digital contraband in certain circumstances like border crossings seems reasonable.

Your phone / laptop is now digitally connected to everything in your life. Giving access of that over to a government agent is like handing them a diary of everything you ever thought, a list of everyone you ever met, a record of everywhere you ever went, a list of every book you've ever read, a list of every medication you've ever taken, a list of every game you've ever played, a list of every off-color joke you've…

It really isn't.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#74

Post by horsecaptin »

iamatworknow wrote: post #49
iamatworknow wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) a…

To perhaps back my point up even further, look at the link that the EFF posted showing CBP's data: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-rele... 189,594,422 people processed at the US border between October 2016 and March 2017 with 14,993 electronics searches. 0.008% of people processed had electronics searched.

Out of the number of people who crossed, how many were flagged for additional questioning? Out of those flagged, how many were carrying a cell-phone / laptop across the border?

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#75

Post by tony101 »

macintux wrote: post #42
adekok wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer one: speed Assuming you have perfect recall, and answer all of their questions truthfully, it will still take time for them to troll through all of your memories and actions. They can do the same with a telephone / laptop in minutes. Answer two: perfect recall You can't recall everything perfectly, and you don't write everything down. So after a while, they won't have anything to go on. "What did you do in Tha…

You can plead the 5th. Your phone cannot.

Exactly. All the more reason to make sure the 4th is upheld.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#76

Post by abtinf »

natch wrote: post #43
abtinf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago, I considered starting regular donations to the EFF. Unfortunately, I did not realize they had taken pro position on state intervention and control of the Internet, a concept generally described with the orwellian phrase "net neutrality." This position directly contradicts much of the their advocacy that I wanted to support.

I am glad you commented, so that others could rebut your misguided position. It's not usually kosher to comment on voting here, but I think in this case it's worth making an exception to help keep you readable: I un-did my downvote of you because I hope that others who, out of innocent ignorance perhaps, currently share your position, will be able to read your comment (I don't want you to go to full invisibility) and…

It is unfortunate that your experiment of encouraging rebuttal didn't work out. When it comes to this issue, emotion and politics trump reason.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#77

Post by throwawayjava »

wonderous wrote: post #57
greymeister wrote: post #55

The US extends the border-search exception to anywhere within 100 miles of an airport with international fights, meaning something like 60% of the US lives within a "border zone" as most international airports are close to dense population centers.

Despite federal law allowing certain federal agents to conduct search and seizures within 100 miles of the border into the interior of the United States,[5] the Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies only at international borders and their functional equivalent (such as international airports).[1] [2] [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=693326075362777…

Right. This is something that people often miss when they say ridiculous things are illegal. The whole point of judicial review is that just because the legislature says something is legal/illegal, doesn't mean it actually is.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#78

Post by lovich »

tbrownaw wrote: post #68
djrogers wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is tangential, and I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you've come close to implying that a CBP agent can stop, search, and detain anyone within 100 miles of an International airport. That's not the case, it would have to be someone who actually crossed the border in to the USA. That said, and I can' believe I have to make this disclaimer as it feels about as obvious as saying I'm against torturing kittens, but I a…

it would have to be someone who actually crossed the border ... And if they want to detain you, who gets to decide whether that happened?

It's fine they just have to check your papers real quick. Also, never question if they can do that unless you want to be arrested for resisting arrest

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#79

Post by tony101 »

tony101 wrote: post #2

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15240700 Edit: Saw the downvotes, so just wanted to note that the linked post was submitted before this one, and hence this comment. Not that it matters. :)

To clarify, I meant to say that this thread (id=15240781) is a dupe of the one I linked to (id=15240700). HN marked the wrong dupe! :)

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#80

Post by Canada »

iamatworknow wrote: post #49
iamatworknow wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) a…

To perhaps back my point up even further, look at the link that the EFF posted showing CBP's data: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-rele... 189,594,422 people processed at the US border between October 2016 and March 2017 with 14,993 electronics searches. 0.008% of people processed had electronics searched.

That would mean that in all of the ports of entry to the United States only 82 phones per day were searched. That's absolutely ridiculous. There are approximately that many international airports. Just airports. Nevermind the enormous flow of land traffic with Canada and Mexico or all sea traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_airports...

CBP is claiming that they searched, on average, less than one phone per day in each airport? Give me a break.

Their claim is probably the number of times they've done some kind of deep analysis with forensic tools. Surely the number of times a border guard casually looked through emails and texts is far higher.

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