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Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

nature.com

71–80 of 207 posts

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#71
post #65
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then we became human and started not acting like lobsters. We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors. I know there are some determinists who say that free will is illusory and we're as much slaves to our genetics and instincts as lobsters are. But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut…

If you choose friends who share values with you, "tribes" will naturally self segregate based on those values. Is that really so bad?

I, uh, do not see what that has to do with your friends being genetically similar.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#72
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then we became human and started not acting like lobsters. We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors. I know there are some determinists who say that free will is illusory and we're as much slaves to our genetics and instincts as lobsters are. But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut…

You are on a cocktail party. Have had a few drinks with friends. You all start talking about spiders. How they are these wonderful tiny creatures to be protected. You know, they got rid of insects and it's actually good to be above this. After all we have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. We're not some freaking lobsters driven by phobias. And you know what? At this wonderful evening party, we all agree, t…

> That's why after 30 years of perfect marriage you might do stupid things when 23 year old hot blonde is sexually provoking you.

Actually you have to make a number of conscious decisions to have an affair. "It just happened" is an excuse.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#73
post #41
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is short people mostly get ignored in an otherwise tall group.

And to take this further, outside of jr. high/high school, this ignoring is unintentional. I'm 5'7" which makes me tall among the shorts, but the number of times I've felt like I had to jump, to make sure other guys pay attention when I interject, is high. Seated meetings/meetups are my friend.

I'm your same height and have never observed this. Frankly a lot of stuff I see online about supposed travails of being my height are bewildering to me.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#74
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framingham, MA is old school New England. I wouldn't be surprised if 75+% of the participants are of direct English/Anglo-Saxon descent, even though the article describes it as "European" descent.

Even if it isn't, I don't think there is much meaningful distinction left among Americans of English and French ancestry. How many people would even notice?

Depends on the area. I think in parts of Maine where there's a strong Quebecois influence there's definitely a meaningful distinction. There's other areas, especially in rural communities, where a specific European country has a lingering overstated influence.

But within any major metro area you're right, there's typically little meaningful distinction anyone would pick up on between two Americans of different European ancestry.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#75
post #33
post #7

> The tendency for friends to have similar genomes might result from people befriending those of similar ancestry, but the duo are confident that isn't the case. Not only did they control for the effect of population structure and ancestry, but the Framingham data is relatively homogeneous in terms of ethnicity, consisting largely of people of European descent. How did they control it? Even amongst Europeans, I imagi…

Framingham, MA is old school New England. I wouldn't be surprised if 75+% of the participants are of direct English/Anglo-Saxon descent, even though the article describes it as "European" descent.

Framingham is pretty much just like that, although it's less than 75% it's still a supermajority.

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/framingham-ma/#demographics

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#76
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it isn't, I don't think there is much meaningful distinction left among Americans of English and French ancestry. How many people would even notice?

Depends on the area. I think in parts of Maine where there's a strong Quebecois influence there's definitely a meaningful distinction. There's other areas, especially in rural communities, where a specific European country has a lingering overstated influence. But within any major metro area you're right, there's typically little meaningful distinction anyone would pick up on between two Americans of different Europe…

Certainly that's strongest in New England. But I don't know most people are French-Canadian unless they tell me (especially given that intermarriage is pretty common so surnames aren't a reliable guide).

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#77
post #42

People need to realize we are built on hardware that is hundreds of millions of years old. We share a similar hormonal dominance hierarchy system with fucking lobsters. You can't just say it's and expect these things to disappear. Tribalism was important for survival, trusting someone who didn't look like you could mean death and thus was selected for over long periods of time.

And then we became human and started not acting like lobsters. We have intellects, a sense of morality, and a will. Those allow us to drastically curtail what might otherwise be instinctive behaviors. I know there are some determinists who say that free will is illusory and we're as much slaves to our genetics and instincts as lobsters are. But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut…

> But it certainly seems as if, in practice, tribalism (at least the clear-cut type you're describing where we exclude people who don't look like us) is recognizable and avoidable.

No, it doesn't. I don't know anyone that has come even close to escaping tribalism.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#78
Basing this on the Framingham study doesn’t say much. We do know homophily is very common world-wide, but Boston in particular is extremely segregated. Out in the burbs it’ll be largely small pools of ethnic (European) groups. While the summary at least touches on this, it would totally flop in diverse areas like SF or NYC. Most of my friends are from all around the world — if they all still shared some genes in a way that was uncommon I’d be extremely surprised.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#79
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Population structure is controlled through the use of the structure as a co-factor in the analyses. They use a principal component analysis on the genotypes to estimate the structure, and then use the first few principal components (PCs) as cofactors in the analyses. So if the European population they used consisted of half English and half French participants, then the first PC would likely divide the two. So if Bri…

Do you believe these findings though? (original article: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/Supplement_3/10796.full ) To me there are a few things worth highlighting, that are at least tangentially relevant: 1. This article was a PNAS Direct Submission. PNAS Direct Submission, a privilege typically reserved for members of the National Academy of Sciences, is like using trump-card to basically skip peer review. Since NAS…

1. You are perceptive, this is usually something to watch out for. However, it does not always indicate that a study is flawed, just that the research might have met with unwanted resistance, and the authors are in position to avoid that resistance.

2. Yes, these scientists are looking to make their research popular, highlighting an unfortunate conflict of interest present in academia. They do this to get big grants. Important observation, but insufficient to dismiss a finding out of hand.

3. So many authors, such a joke! These people mostly just help collect data, or sometimes simply share data they already have and then give the manuscript a quick read before publishing. But that is actually beside the point. If a lab already had data ready, and isn't pressured to add authors for political reasons, then two authors is not necessarily a red-flag. In fact, these analyses are relatively easy to do with available software. If they have the data, they just plug and chug.

4. The findings of the paper suggest strongly that friends are more genetically similar, on average, akin to fourth cousins. The results have yet to be rebutted to my knowledge. The fact they found some regions were negatively correlated does not conflict with their overall results. I have some doubts that their regional analyses should carry much weight (e.g. olfactory and immune regions). Furthermore, their explanations using natural selection appear to be a stretch. These are possible overstatements of results, allowed because of your points 1 and 2.

My overall impression of the paper is that main results are somewhat interesting and entirely novel. But there is a ton of stretching for just-so stories and "interesting" findings that will be unlikely to hold up. Typical PNAS.

Re: Friends Are Genetically Similar (2014)

#80

People need to realize we are built on hardware that is hundreds of millions of years old. We share a similar hormonal dominance hierarchy system with fucking lobsters. You can't just say it's and expect these things to disappear. Tribalism was important for survival, trusting someone who didn't look like you could mean death and thus was selected for over long periods of time.

Adultery and murder have happened in just about every human society in the history of time but nobody thinks we shouldn't bother trying to suppress those impulses.

Most of us would agree with you, I think what OP is saying is that it's irrational to say things like "It's 2017, who murders people anymore!?". People still murder, but we should definitely continue to try suppress that behavior.
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