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Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

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Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#71

Post by brett40324 »

tjr wrote: post #47
jacquesm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the article isn't arguing that, the article seems to be arguing we are something more than engineers. But we are not even engineers, let alone more. There are some people active in the production of software that would qualify as engineers but that's a tiny fraction and they're not going to be found too far from medical devices and aerospace.

Aerospace software engineer here. :-) I feel perfectly content to deem my work as "engineering". I can understand why someone quickly whipping up a small web application (which is not to imply that all web applications are quickly whipped up, nor that all web applications are small) might reasonably feel that their work is not engineering. So since I've also done quick little web applications, what do I think the dif…

Serious question. Can you offer any advice on going from web/mobile app developer to the level of systems/aerospace software engineer? Say, over the course of 5 years?

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#72

Post by bassman9000 »

cortesoft wrote: post #15

Oh my god this is such pompous article. None of these things are specific to software developers, and 90% of the things it says are platitudes that mean nothing. There are even some that are just wrong, like the 'throw it away' section. "It's not the code that is valuable. It's the understanding you've gained from building it." What? Maybe at some places, but where I work, the software I write is NEEDED. And this: "N…

This, 10000 fold.

Starting with the title. Yes, I'm an engineer. I studied engineering, including algebra, calculus, and physics for CS students, a common core for all engineering students, regardless their specialty. Don't take that away from me. I saw colleagues leave after 1st and 2nd years because they couldn't stand it. It's my peers' and my achievement.

I'm an engineer also because I solve people's problems through software, applying technology derived from scientific breakthroughs.

Yes, sometimes we need to get creative, as everyone else.

Finishing with this

We are in a very fast-paced industry, and nothing will stand still for long.

That mentality is toxic. I aim for my designs, APIs, routines, scrips, to be as long lived as I can make them. Most of the time I don't achieve it. Sometimes it's my fault, sometimes it's the environment. But I create for the future. For me it would be an enormous achievement to learn some piece of software is still kicking ass 5y/10y/15y after.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#73

Post by brett40324 »

flavio81 wrote: post #54

I don't think this manifesto adds any kind of value to developers. The word that come to my mind is "shallow". Pretentious, pompous. Of course "coders" will love it. Perhaps UI and UX design is an art, but at the end software requires engineering. The only manifesto i'd recommend is this one: http://programming-motherfucker.com/

Upvote for Zed's link. I was pleased to see that!

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#74

Post by grzm »

falcolas wrote: post #67
tjr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aerospace software engineer here. :-) I feel perfectly content to deem my work as "engineering". I can understand why someone quickly whipping up a small web application (which is not to imply that all web applications are quickly whipped up, nor that all web applications are small) might reasonably feel that their work is not engineering. So since I've also done quick little web applications, what do I think the dif…

Personally, I've never even had to really consider working around issues like those that are presented here: https://c3.nasa.gov/dashlink/static/media/other/ObservedFail... I also don't really consider myself an engineer: I'm self taught, I don't have a degree, I've never had to formally prove my software, and the most failures in my software can cause is some potential loss in revenue.

The quote "There is no such thing as digital circuitry. There is only analog circuitry driven to extremes." is a gem. Thanks for the link! Is anyone aware of a textual version of this slide deck?

https://c3.nasa.gov/dashlink/static/media/other/ObservedFail...

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#75

Post by anotherevan »

While the article may be considered a bit trite, and people argue over the word "artisan", there were a couple of points that brought salient anecdotes to mind.

Own Up to Failure

I've worked in quite a few places where arse covering was a full-time activity. Where, "I don't want to make a decision because then I can't change my mind later," is and actual quote during requirements gathering.

For some reason, I've never been bothered being honest when I've screwed up. I distinctly remember one time when one of the client's staff came to me about a problem, loaded for bear, fully expecting a fight on their hands. About one minute into the discussion, having got my head around the problem I said, "Yeah, that was my stuff up. I'll get that fixed."

There was a palpable sense of shock, followed by delight and relief.

...and that leads in to...

Trust is Earned

Where I was brought into high-level management meeting with the same client about some important issue, and my opening remark was, "That's not a bug, it's a feature," as which point my project manager nearly had kittens on the spot. But I then explained through the details of what was going on, agreed on a couple of minor adjustments that would make things clearer in the future, and everyone came away satisfied.

Don't know if I could have gotten away with that if I hadn't already had the reputation for being straight with people and owning my own mistakes.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#76

Post by falcolas »

jacquesm wrote: post #70
falcolas wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I've never even had to really consider working around issues like those that are presented here: https://c3.nasa.gov/dashlink/static/media/other/ObservedFail... I also don't really consider myself an engineer: I'm self taught, I don't have a degree, I've never had to formally prove my software, and the most failures in my software can cause is some potential loss in revenue.

That's a fantastic link, thank you for posting. I spent an hour reading that.

For your enjoyment (there's a couple of other good links in the discussion): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14765868

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#77

Post by dctoedt »

falcolas wrote: post #66
spraak wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had wrote that, it would have been about how it led to the development of the Cesarean section operation. In the US, and many other places, the prevalence is much higher than the medical need. When there is no medical need for a C-section, there really isn't any benefit over the risks to the mother and child. Also--and this will probably sound quite hand-wavy or too woo-woo for most of HN's demographic (I assume…

And once a mother has a c-section, most (all?) future births are via c-sections as well. There is a cost to the mother - major surgery - to the benefit of children. Modern society considers this a worthwhile trade, but it would have meant the death of the mother not even a century ago. I have no real way to tie this back to programming; other than perhaps to note that we're likely still in the dark ages of programmin…

> I have no real way to tie this back to programming ...

One facet of the tie-in is the age-old question of what to optimize for: Programmer time? Execution speed? Code compactness? Code maintainability? Cf. The Story of Mel [0].

[0] http://www.cs.utah.edu/~elb/folklore/mel.html

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#78

Post by dctoedt »

spraak wrote: post #41
luddypants wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on what you find disturbing? The implication of high failure rate, or the shift of focus to reliability?

If I had wrote that, it would have been about how it led to the development of the Cesarean section operation. In the US, and many other places, the prevalence is much higher than the medical need. When there is no medical need for a C-section, there really isn't any benefit over the risks to the mother and child. Also--and this will probably sound quite hand-wavy or too woo-woo for most of HN's demographic (I assume…

Keep in mind that a C-section is done only when normal labor isn't enough; it's an alternative to the use of forceps (which is very difficult to teach and can be catastrophic) and not to normal vaginal delivery.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#79

Post by tjr »

brett40324 wrote: post #71
tjr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aerospace software engineer here. :-) I feel perfectly content to deem my work as "engineering". I can understand why someone quickly whipping up a small web application (which is not to imply that all web applications are quickly whipped up, nor that all web applications are small) might reasonably feel that their work is not engineering. So since I've also done quick little web applications, what do I think the dif…

Serious question. Can you offer any advice on going from web/mobile app developer to the level of systems/aerospace software engineer? Say, over the course of 5 years?

I'm not sure if you are asking how to transition into working in aerospace? Or how to apply aerospace engineering methods to web/mobile? (Or maybe something else?)

Aerospace development is not categorically harder or more skillful than any other sort of software development. Some areas are math-heavy, but that's true elsewhere too. The biggest difference is the process overhead.

Re: Developer Manifesto – You Are an Artisan, Not an Engineer

#80

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

The engineering debate aside, I don't even like how programmers fancy themselves as "developers", which is very non descriptive, considering that around half of all human jobs are about "developing" something. People who write programs should just call themselves "programmers" for the sake of clarity.
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