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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

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Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#71

Post by cakedoggie »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #53
tardygrad wrote: post #35

This was touched upon heavily in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt, an amazing book if you're interested in this sort of thing and part of Bill Gate's reading list where I first found it. This quote (by Bertrand Russell) stood out: "Social cohesion is a necessity, and mankind has never yet succeeded in enforcing cohesion by merely rational arguments. Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers: o…

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

So according to you, NO ONE takes care of their neighbours, NO ONE helps anyone in their family when they need it, and NO ONE does charity work, because the government know fulfills that roll.

But we can all plainly see that this is completely wrong, and people do do all that.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#72

Post by tomohawk »

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result.

When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Choice goes out the window.

I've heard many people ask why they should volunteer or help out others, when they're already paying lots of money in taxes to "take care of those problems".

This is the final tragedy of the government intervention. It turns activities where people are helping people into programs that solve problems.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#73

Post by closeparen »

summer_steven wrote: post #63
losteric wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socially advanced European nations do not have cooperation and social cohesion problems. What makes America unique?

Your making the classic mistake of equating the top 10% European countries like Switzerland and Sweden with the entire United States . Midwestern states, Washington state, and New England have cohesion. Correct your perspective and see that the United States and Europe are fairly equal. Example: Italy has next to no cohesion.

Uh, visit inner-city Milwaukee, Detroit, or Gary sometime. Or, for that matter, some opioid-ravaged population-3000 former logging town in central Wisconsin. Social cohesion seems to evaporate along with jobs in the Midwest as everywhere else.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#74

Post by losteric »

summer_steven wrote: post #64
losteric wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame the Cold War and decades of counter-collectivism propaganda. An entire generation grew up in that atmosphere... they became the nation's teachers and leaders, influencing the opinions of subsequent generations. Game theory shows small changes in behaviors and opinions can have massive downstream impact, as demonstrated by this interactive demo: http://ncase.me/trust/ (HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

> [I blame the lack of] decades of counter-collectivism propaganda. How do Eastern European countries fare then? How about China?

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what comparison you're drawing here.

(Note: I specifically said collectivism, not Communism)

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#75

Post by didgeoridoo »

reactor4 wrote: post #67
didgeoridoo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way to take that Thatcher quote out of context in order to reverse its meaning. What she really said was: "No government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first… There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for…

The full quote doesn't reverse the meaning at all.

Of course it does. Which part of Thatcher's quote do you see as promoting the idea that we should "suppress our humanity"? Do you see that in there anywhere? And can you imagine why the out-of-context "there is no such thing as society" quote could be construed as a dishonest interpretation of her philosophy?

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#76

Post by cat199 »

RealityNow wrote: post #62

This is due to the entrenchment of neoliberalism since the 70s (famously Reagan in the 80s), the ideology that government's sole responsibility is to enforce free markets, any other function of government is bad, and that every aspect of life should be dictated by free markets. Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" sums it up. Rising wealth inequality is simply a byproduct of this.…

While I don't doubt this contributed, it also presumes that government is the main driver of social interation, which itself implies a non-participatory philosophy of the person..

If you are correct, how then did this philosophy get into place to begin with?

I would argue that it is more likely the rise of corporatism in the post war era which brought massive disruption of 'organic' social networks and through the large-scale transformation of economic activity from small businesses into larger ones removed much of the need for societal participation.

mass media, the decline of religious life, and the entrance of women into the workplace also likely are major factors - we can entertain ourselves, don't hear moral/values in a community, and have fully 1/2 of the house dedicated to matters of societal rather than economic concern

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#77

Post by humanrebar »

beachy wrote: post #56
Consultant32452 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

I live in a country with universal healthcare and it works pretty well much of the time, so perhaps I don't have the same perspective as you. But some of your examples ring a little extreme. Do you really suggest "having a big family" as the way to survive health problems and retirement? Because that's how it works in some (e.g.) SE Asian countries, and life there can be very harsh indeed if you strike adversity and…

> ...life there can be very harsh indeed if you strike adversity and don't have family to care for you.

Life can be very harsh if you're unfortunate but don't qualify for government benefits. Or maybe you've genuinely turned a corner in your life but government rules don't have mercy like individuals can.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#78

Post by cat199 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #53
tardygrad wrote: post #35

This was touched upon heavily in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt, an amazing book if you're interested in this sort of thing and part of Bill Gate's reading list where I first found it. This quote (by Bertrand Russell) stood out: "Social cohesion is a necessity, and mankind has never yet succeeded in enforcing cohesion by merely rational arguments. Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers: o…

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

Isn't caring for your neighbor an inherently 'collectivist' act?

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#79

Post by adrianratnapala »

Animats wrote: post #34
PoachedSausage wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best sports and social clubs I've been a member of generally try to avoid too many political games although they are nominally democratic. Club politics is generally tiresome, few people join a tennis club or hackerspace to play politics, they want to play tennis or make things.

"The trouble with socialism is that it takes up too many evenings." -Wilde That's the problem with democracy. It's hard work.

One of the things that Tocqueville approved of in America is that everyone had some experience of government via jury duty. Which is compulsory (at least in principle, and in those days, probably in practice too).

I've often wondered if random juries should play a larger role in day-to-day government. Forcing people to work like this is a huge tax and not to be taken lightly, but taxing peoples attention rather than their wallets might actually be what we need.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#80

Post by dsjoerg »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

Why should I believe what you say? It sounds truthy and has plenty of logic to it, but I've come to ask for more before believing something.
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