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Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

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Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's manufacturing companies have massive union presence in everything they do and they're some of the most successful in the planet. Let's stop with this ridiculous demonization of unions. American corporations have chosen a confrontational model with unions and staff. It doesn't have to be this way. There are better models around if the owners of capital are willing to cooperate with workers.

Germany's unions and US unions operate under different laws, which grant different rights and power to the unions, and apply different restrictions to the employees and companies where unions are established. Comparing the two as if they are the exact same thing is specious at best.

And the balance is skewed way more towards German unions than American ones.

It's clearly not about the unions.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#72
post #66

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

Depends on who you ask. Airline pilot forums, for example, would have a much different stance. The HN crowd probably thinks the current meritocracy is good enough, so unions seem like an unneeded expense. You tend to appreciate it more if it might have direct benefits to you. I suspect if you asked people who were laid off, or older developers experiencing age discrimination, you would see a different distribution of…

None recent? I would beg to differ. Here's one example: https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/10/c...

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#73
post #12

I'm a Tesla shareholder (of little significance in the grand scheme of things, but I bought some) and this wouldn't put me off. In fact, I think they should have a union.

As a shareholder this would really put me off. Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago. I'm largely anti-union anyways. We should have government enforced guarantees of decent treatment. We shouldn't have a tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry.

Surely you think an employee should be able to quit his job, become a contractor, and charge the company more money. A union is just all the employees quitting and starting a consulting group.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#74
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a shareholder this would really put me off. Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago. I'm largely anti-union anyways. We should have government enforced guarantees of decent treatment. We shouldn't have a tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry.

The main reason why the auto makers had a hard time was the global recession. Unions had exactly nothing to do with it.

Not exactly true, GM had $51 billion in losses in the 3 years prior to the 2008 recession. Factories in Michigan were being shut down long before that with operations being moved to lower cost locations -- locations that were lower cost specifically because they were either overseas or right-to-work states. Claiming that unions had nothing to do with the automotive crisis is to misunderstand the automotive industry. The financial crisis was traumatic to the auto companies because even with a shift away from union manufacturing, the overall drop in worldwide demand was the straw that broke the camel's back. The auto companies were on life support before the global recession.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#75
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on who you ask. Airline pilot forums, for example, would have a much different stance. The HN crowd probably thinks the current meritocracy is good enough, so unions seem like an unneeded expense. You tend to appreciate it more if it might have direct benefits to you. I suspect if you asked people who were laid off, or older developers experiencing age discrimination, you would see a different distribution of…

None recent? I would beg to differ. Here's one example: https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/10/c...

[deleted]

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#76
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on who you ask. Airline pilot forums, for example, would have a much different stance. The HN crowd probably thinks the current meritocracy is good enough, so unions seem like an unneeded expense. You tend to appreciate it more if it might have direct benefits to you. I suspect if you asked people who were laid off, or older developers experiencing age discrimination, you would see a different distribution of…

None recent? I would beg to differ. Here's one example: https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/10/c...

Okay, so nothing of the magnitude of the Hoffa days that's recent...when most unions were corrupt. Sure, you'll find some notable issues with any collection of large organization of any type. My point is that some opinions on unions are still based on that era.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#77

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

One of the major goals of the USA is to make corporations (and their owners) obscenely rich.

Unions are one tiny attempt by the common-man to even that out a fraction, and is therefore evil by definition, because it goes against the above point.

Anyone against unions is either a) an obscenely rich owner who doesn't want to share, or b) has been tricked into thinking making rich people richer will help them in some extremely obscure way.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#78
post #12

I'm a Tesla shareholder (of little significance in the grand scheme of things, but I bought some) and this wouldn't put me off. In fact, I think they should have a union.

As a shareholder this would really put me off. Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago. I'm largely anti-union anyways. We should have government enforced guarantees of decent treatment. We shouldn't have a tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry.

> I'm largely anti-union

For that idea to be rational, you probably are the owner of some big enterprise.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a shareholder this would really put me off. Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago. I'm largely anti-union anyways. We should have government enforced guarantees of decent treatment. We shouldn't have a tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry.

While this would work well in theory, do you see either political party working to build a stronger "bill of labor rights" for Americans? Americans don't have basic labor rights like mandated vacation, paternity/maternity leave, sick leave, etc. I don't see the American political system as fixing this anytime soon.

Why is mandated vacation considered a "right?" It's a right that I don't have to work? That should be an agreement between the employer and employee and not the business of government. I'm an independent contractor and I don't get vacation paid by anyone except me. If I don't work, I don't get paid. I'm not sure why that's controversial. Should a restaurant customer pay for meals they didn't actually order just because they eat at a restaurant regularly? Then why should companies be compelled by the government to pay employees who aren't actually working?

To be clear, I'm not opposed to vacations -- that's a benefit that companies could offer in their bid to compete in the market for labor. It absolutely ought not be any of government's business. This is one of the reasons it's so incredibly unattractive to start a business in France and some other EU countries. The amount of government largesse at the entrepreneur's expense makes it insane to want to hire anyone let alone try and grow a business there. At the end of the day, "paid" vacation is paid for by the employee and the customers in the form of lower salaries and higher prices. Look at pre-tax salaries in Paris versus Silicon Valley. SV pays 3-4 times more AND offers health care and "benefits." In France, it's very risky to hire anyone, so salaries reflect the amount of risk assumed when hiring that employee -- meaning they're paid much less because there's a chance you'll be stuck with that employee indefinitely. Taxes are higher, living costs are higher, yet salaries are lower -- by 300%. All that "paid" vacation and "paid" benefits aren't cheap. If you look at net salaries, the difference is even more dramatic. The disposable income of a European worker is dramatically less than that of an American worker -- at least in software and tech.

The only people that demand "basic rights" such as 4 weeks paid vacation are people that have never run a business. The moment these campaigners for government mandated benefits actually try to start a business of their own is the moment they suddenly realize how destructive government-mandated benefits can be to a company and the economy. Employers should be able to offer whatever benefits they choose to offer. If an employee doesn't like the offered terms, they can walk away. If a company wants to compete for top talent, they'll end up offering good benefits as a response to the market as opposed to government mandate.

Look at the benefits offered by Facebook and Google. No government mandates there -- it's the market. They want to attract the best, so they have to offer the best.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#80
post #7

The committee also calls on Tesla to release clear policies on how Fremont factory workers can get promoted, adding that "there are no guidelines for what is expected of us, or what defines success." Uh, what? Do they expect a checklist with items like "be there for 9 hours a day" and so on? Frankly, people who need such a list are not the ones who deserve a promotion - those who do deserve it just work away at the p…

For software engineers it would be something vaguer like showing that you've succeeded on a project with sufficient complexity. But I don't know what the equivalent would be for factory workers.

It'd be fine to say something like "demonstrated exceptional reliability and proficiency in operating their machinery" could work. I know nothing about factories though
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