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14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

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Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#71

Post by rosser »

mythrwy wrote: post #41
mattnewton wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that shame doesn't help the people already addicted- it makes it harder for them to deal with their current issues. It encourages avoidance of help, and avoidance of looking at the problem head on. A better deterrent in my opinion would simply be ads about the consequences, like successful anti smoking campaigns. It would be hard for me to disagree more than I do with the advocacy of continued shame for addic…

I don't think ads will work. But you might be right about shame. I don't know, I'm not an expert on addiction and human psychology. But I have known a few and most of them weren't either.

You admit you aren't an expert, but are demonstrably willing to extrapolate from the "few" you've known to "it's a moral failing"?

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#72

Post by Kurtz79 »

lmickh wrote: post #12

Find it misleading that almost all of the recent articles on this subject talk about decriminalization as the cause for the drop in drug related health issues. They shifted a significant chunk of money to health services. If it proves anything, it is only that health services can reduce drug related health issues. Without a control, there is nothing to point to regarding criminalization vs decriminalization. People a…

It's hard to decouple decriminalization (which is not legalization) with simply investing in better treatment for addicts.

If to get treatment they basically have to turn themselves in, and are liable to go to jail, I doubt many would make that choice.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#73

Post by tigershark »

mythrwy wrote: post #32
shawnee_ wrote: post #27

Portugal's performance in perspective: Only three people for every million die of a drug overdose in Portugal, which puts one of the eurozone's poorest countries in a different league than rich international powerhouse Germany (17.6 per million) and in a different universe than social democratic utopia Sweden (69.7 per million). There's a fascinating documentary called American Addict on what nearly happened before t…

While I generally agree with most of what you state I'd like to offer the unpopular opinion that the personal decision to use hard or addicting drugs is something of a moral failing. Not that there aren't extenuating circumstances, not that it's a "terrible crime", but, it is a vice in which people for the most part, at least initially, have some choice. Again, I'm in favor of most everything you suggest, particularl…

Most importantly following the same reasoning so popular here we could argue that no one is a criminal, if anyone commits some crimes it is because of the social environment in which he was raised, or because of some mental health issues, or whatever excuse you want to find. In these years we are assisting to a de-responsibilization in which every one is excused for any behaviour. Pointing out like you that a lot of the addicts at the beginning did a conscious choice to use drugs will just bring a lot of downvotes and simply false replies asserting that everyone is an addict because it was given some pain relief medication or that alcohol is worse than heroin, just to make some people curious about it and to try it probably.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#74

Post by toyg »

cpncrunch wrote: post #34
drefgert wrote: post #7

The critical part missing from portugals policy is that drugs must be legal to buy and sell (via controlled channels). Decriminalizing use helps, but legalizing sales take out the crime and ensures the health of users through clean product.

Even with clean heroin, there is still a danger from overdose. https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/o... You could perhaps consider it as a Darwin award...sell heroin to anyone who wants it, and then if they become addicted and overdose, at least it clears the gene pool of people who are too dumb to use it responsibly. /s Note, that is not my viewpoint, but I wonder if that's what some of the pr…

No proposer of legalization ever thought of it as "a darwin award". If anything, it's the opposite: treating addiction as a health issue usually ensures people will survive - both users, who get "clean" drugs in predictable quantities; and dealers, who can come out of the underworld and not risk their lives running from the police or from other gangs.

The current criminalization is extremely darwinistic: only the most violent thugs survive in the supply chain, and only the smartest users.

I don't think legalizing will increase usage of heroin, because its health problems are huge and extremely well-known. Like putting ferrets up your bum, people are not going to do it simply "because it's legal".

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#75

Post by [deleted] »

cpncrunch wrote: post #34
drefgert wrote: post #7

The critical part missing from portugals policy is that drugs must be legal to buy and sell (via controlled channels). Decriminalizing use helps, but legalizing sales take out the crime and ensures the health of users through clean product.

Even with clean heroin, there is still a danger from overdose. https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/o... You could perhaps consider it as a Darwin award...sell heroin to anyone who wants it, and then if they become addicted and overdose, at least it clears the gene pool of people who are too dumb to use it responsibly. /s Note, that is not my viewpoint, but I wonder if that's what some of the pr…

[deleted]

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#76

Post by vidarh »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #70
jdmoreira wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Portuguese and I grew up watching the heroin epidemic we had in Portugal. It was horrible, like the article mentions 1% of the population was addicted to heroin. Curiously I now live in Sweden, but I lived in Portugal for the first 11 years of the decriminalization. And the solution actually started years before, in the early 90s. It's a bit like you said, it was an huge investment in public health - the first su…

I wish we could get the same attitude in Sweden. What do you think is the main barrier in Sweden?

I'm Norwegian, not Swedish, but there is this lutheran/protestant culture that's very deeply embedded in the Scandinavian/Nordic countries that have one hand contributed to the success of things like criminal reform and welfare, because those areas happened to unite a lot of Christians and a lot of liberals and left wing people around a shared belief of how to treat people with decency and compassion, but which at the same time can be very paternalistic when applied to other areas.

You see this in terms of policies on things like alcohol and drugs in particular, but also areas like prostitution, where the attitude is often that the people involved are sinners who both need help and punishment, and where there is an attitude of "we know best" about legislation and treatment options.

The Nordic countries often looks liberal on the surface, but while they have secularised rapidly there is still an undercurrent of Christian moralistic ideas that have had a very firm grip in many areas, aided by the long lasting state churches (e.g. the Norwegian Lutheran church was a state church with the government appointing key people until 2012).

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#77

Post by vidarh »

thatswrong0 wrote: post #61
seanhandley wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about all the criminals that can no longer make money selling on the black market? Killing unregulated production allows for cleaner, safer substances to be created with known strength and purity. After decades of prohibition, we can conclude the "War On Drugs" is a lost cause and people will always seek out drugs. If people are going to take drugs regardless, let's make sure they're clean and the profits of sal…

Exactly. Beyond removing the criminal element, the fentanyl epidemic should make the destructive nature of our current policy so obvious as to warrant the complete legalization (and regulation) of heroin. People are dying at incredibly high rates because they are not getting pure substances - they are receiving substances cut with something that can kill at tiny doses. Not only do heroin addicts have to deal with her…

I keep saying that the evidence on the danger of the current drug policy is so clear that I refuse to see this as a subjective issue where a politician is justified to be of the opinion current policy is ok anymore.

I can understand "ordinary people" not reading up on it, but at this point I personally consider politicians who continue to oppose large scale drug reform to be morally responsible for contributing to mass murder.

I accept they're not legally responsible, but I genuinely believe most of them should be in prison on murder charges for their parts in perpetuating these violent policies unless they've at the very least voted in opposition to these policies if/when they've had the chance.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#78

Post by toyg »

cpncrunch wrote: post #55
Clubber wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How anyone can believe that harsher sentences will curb drug use in this day and age with 50 years of evidence to the contrary is beyond me.

You're probably right. However the other question is whether dealers should be help criminally liable for fentanyl-related deaths. In essence they are selling something that they know will likely kill some of their customers.

Like they didn't know already, even before fentanyl. Dealers don't care for the long run, they want their cash today and screw anything else. A few fiends die, tough; someone else will come along soon enough. And if you're caught, 5 or 10 years is an immaterial difference: prison is just part of the lifestyle, doing two 5-yr or one 10-yr is the same.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#79

Post by vidarh »

mythrwy wrote: post #56
JamesBarney wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must being living in a very different community than mine. I live in Texas and being a heroin/cocaine/alcohol/nicotine(not as much) addict is a shameful thing. Yet we still have quiet the drug problem. I've only known a few people who fell down the deadly spiral of drug abuse. But each one hid their addiction because of shame until it was so terrible they couldn't. And I believe if it had been less shameful they…

I live close enough and here's my observation. There is a very large subgroup that doesn't regard these things as shameful. This often becomes the main group of people involved with drugs. And it keeps sucking them back in, sometimes when they would otherwise get and this is exactly the problem I'm talking about.

Have you considered that a large part of the reason it keeps sucking them back in might be that it's the only environment where they're not judged for their problem?

If so, a less judgemental environment might very well help more people out of the addiction cycle, and a more judgemental environment might very well make it harder to escape.

It's not at all clear that making it into something shameful has any positive effects.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#80

Post by rwnspace »

jdmoreira wrote: post #44
lmickh wrote: post #12

Find it misleading that almost all of the recent articles on this subject talk about decriminalization as the cause for the drop in drug related health issues. They shifted a significant chunk of money to health services. If it proves anything, it is only that health services can reduce drug related health issues. Without a control, there is nothing to point to regarding criminalization vs decriminalization. People a…

I'm Portuguese and I grew up watching the heroin epidemic we had in Portugal. It was horrible, like the article mentions 1% of the population was addicted to heroin. Curiously I now live in Sweden, but I lived in Portugal for the first 11 years of the decriminalization. And the solution actually started years before, in the early 90s. It's a bit like you said, it was an huge investment in public health - the first su…

It's peculiar how reports of sensible policy make me feel Portugal is adorned in rubies and roses. Here in the UK the Home Office recently said they have no plans to look at even the classification of cannabis. Despite most local police forces not bothering with anything but factories, a majority of population supporting legalisation/decriminalisation, and global trends. We are comparatively medieval but for a few smart initiatives. I have heard that Germany and Norway/Sweden also have some very similar attitudes: I blame Calvinism.

I could rant for hours on alcohol and tobacco policy in the UK. A little knowledge of the field of Harm Reduction opens a lot of avenues for criticism. Particularly increasing taxation, which extracts most from the working class and is effective in few use-cases. The UK isn't alone: look up the EU's May 2017 'Tobacco Product Directive' regarding E-cigs. Read: lobbying from groups that are responsible for millions of deaths and public cost are strangling and monopolising a market and technology that is an incredible source of harm reduction... I'm struggling to hold my tongue at this point.

We have a large problem with a political class who don't listen to reason or evidence, simply an innately conservative discourse makes the problem look smaller than it really is. It's fantastic to read a positive outlook on Portugal's policy - it has been smeared countless times here.

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