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Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

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Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#71

Post by Frogolocalypse »

stale2002 wrote: post #50
hudon wrote: post #20

A fork like Bitcoin Cash will be a boon for the blockchain community. There is a pretty big subset of the community that believe Bitcoin is a panacea that will replace currencies, payment networks and so on, regardless of how technically inferior the blockchain is to other more mature distributed databases and networks. They believe one day, the blockchain will be just as efficient or even more so. This subset is voc…

Kind of. You are correct that segwit2X is a hard fork, and therefore the other side could potentially stop it from happening. But the thing is that it is already established that it is possible to do a blocksize increase via a soft fork. Segwit itself is literally a blocksize soft fork. So if the hard fork fails, the big blockers could instead just blocksize soft fork instead of hard fork. The war won't be over if se…

> therefore the other side could potentially stop it from happening

No one can stop you from forking bitcoin. It's open source. Anyone can do it. What you can't do is force all of the existing users to stop using bitcoin, and instead use your china-coin fork.

I wish you woukd fork. But you won't. Because as soon as you do, you'll find that none of the existing users of bitcoin will follow your fork. So a week or so later, you'll blame core.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#74

Post by hudon »

Jabanga wrote: post #65
hudon wrote: post #20

A fork like Bitcoin Cash will be a boon for the blockchain community. There is a pretty big subset of the community that believe Bitcoin is a panacea that will replace currencies, payment networks and so on, regardless of how technically inferior the blockchain is to other more mature distributed databases and networks. They believe one day, the blockchain will be just as efficient or even more so. This subset is voc…

>There is a pretty big subset of the community that believe Bitcoin is a panacea that will replace currencies, payment networks and so on, regardless of how technically inferior the blockchain is to other more mature distributed databases and networks But they don't believe it's technically inferior to more mature distributed databases and networks.. You're transposing your own opinion onto theirs.

It's not opinion, it's fact. VISA can easily process over 40,000 TPS today. A single MySQL instance can process 10,000 TPS with very little electricity consumption compared to the Bitcoin or Ethereum networks, which currently use a ridiculous amount of electricity to process somewhere between 2 TPS to 20 TPS.

None of these numbers are hard to find and they are widely accepted as fact, not opinion.

> They believe one day, the blockchain will be just as efficient or even more so

^This is indeed their opinion and not a fact. Do you disagree?

Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#75

Post by CyberDildonics »

hudon wrote: post #74
Jabanga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is a pretty big subset of the community that believe Bitcoin is a panacea that will replace currencies, payment networks and so on, regardless of how technically inferior the blockchain is to other more mature distributed databases and networks But they don't believe it's technically inferior to more mature distributed databases and networks.. You're transposing your own opinion onto theirs.

It's not opinion, it's fact. VISA can easily process over 40,000 TPS today. A single MySQL instance can process 10,000 TPS with very little electricity consumption compared to the Bitcoin or Ethereum networks, which currently use a ridiculous amount of electricity to process somewhere between 2 TPS to 20 TPS. None of these numbers are hard to find and they are widely accepted as fact, not opinion. > They believe one…

This is a fundamental misunderstanding that assumes a linear relationship between transaction capacity and electricity usage even though they are completely decoupled.

Here is a comment I made earlier addressing the comparison to Visa with actual resources it takes:

-They don't require everyone to hold the whole blockchain, you can have a thin wallet where the blockchain is held elsewhere.

-An ecosystem of multiple different currencies does create sharding.

-Merkle trees are a hierarchy of hashes so that someone can hold only the parts of the chain they want to look at and know that they are on the right chain by syncing large parts of it with their hash as a whole.

-At Visa level transaction rates of 300 Million transactions per day and the minimum size of about 4 transactions per KB in bitcoin, that means that at current 8TB hard drive prices it costs about $900 USD per year to store all the transactions. This would also require a steady connection of at least 870 KB/s to sync with the chain.

In short, there are plenty of solutions with even the extreme examples of involvement being very obtainable by the average person in a developed country.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#76

Post by CyberDildonics »

h1d wrote: post #33
hudon wrote: post #20

A fork like Bitcoin Cash will be a boon for the blockchain community. There is a pretty big subset of the community that believe Bitcoin is a panacea that will replace currencies, payment networks and so on, regardless of how technically inferior the blockchain is to other more mature distributed databases and networks. They believe one day, the blockchain will be just as efficient or even more so. This subset is voc…

The reason is not because of the vision. Also if anyone thinks about it as a replacement of paypal/visa, they know scaling via increased block size is not going to cut it. 7tx/s doen't do much good if scaled linearly. It was a flaw in the Bitcoin specification that there was a conflict of interest between miners and users that when more blocks are filled, the more fee the miners get, thus miners have no incentive to…

8MB blocks means 13KB/s to sync with the chain -when blocks are full-. The numbers for this argument don't work out at all.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#77

Post by CyberDildonics »

Taek wrote: post #37
eterm wrote: post #5

Is there a crypto voting ring? I understand why most crypto articles reach the top 10 posts but this one has nothing going for it. * Niche website linked / breaking the news * Non-mainstream crypto-fork * No novel interest / features There's nothing to suggest why this would be upvoted, even among this crypto-friendly crowd.

The group associated with Bitcoin Cash is well known to participate in the manipulation of social media and news aggregates, including vote manipulation and sockpuppet comments.

Are they? I ask, because they aren't the ones that are HEAVILY censoring /r/bitcoin

On /r/bitcoin there are shadow bans, outright bans, story deletion, selective enforcement of their cherry picked rules, different default comment reorganization when the conversation doesn't go the way they like and of course closed moderation logs.

/r/btc has none of this. So who is really doing the manipulation? Many of the posters who are lock step with the narratives /r/bitcoin pushes have post histories that are ONLY in /r/btc and /r/bitcoin and end up with -100 karma. Most the accounts that pop up like this are also only a few months old.

So who exactly is engaging in those practices? Because when real people meet up, or when votes are taken with signed bitcoin keys, or any sort of real verification is done there ends up being silence of the narratives /r/bitcoin pushes.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#78

Post by CyberDildonics »

SeriousM wrote: post #62

As a bitcoin newbie, I'm even more confused now as before and I don't know if I should start with bitcoin at all..

Just make sure to read /r/btc and either ignore /r/bitcoin or know that both /r/bitcoin and bitcoin talk are heavily censored and manipulated. Hacker News has some of the same absurdities that pop up, but it isn't as bad. The big question is, do you think 13KB/s AT MOST is too much for your internet connection and computer to handle? Right now it is 1/8th of that, and the /r/bitcoin and 'small blocker' narrative is that anything more is a disaster. Simple math and even slight experience with bitcoin shows that it is exceptionally more likely that this is to create a problem that the company, blockstream, that pays all the gate keepers to the 'core' implementation, can then solve.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#79

Post by CyberDildonics »

Frogolocalypse wrote: post #68
jgord wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a commonly voiced, but false dichotomy - increasing blocksize 4x or even 8x will have negligible impact on the security or decentrality of Bitcoin. It will just allow more transactions through, which will allow fees to fall to levels where normal people can use it for normal transactions. The use of bitcoin as a currency is being throttled by the artificially small blocksize. We can have more than 3 transactions…

> increasing blocksize 4x or even 8x will have negligible impact on the security or decentrality of Bitcoin. Incorrect. It will make running a full node for almost all consumers in Australia impossible at any price. > hopefully SegWit2X will be the sane compromise Segwit is the compromise and we are finally going to get it. If you want to install the 2x hard-fork to china-coin, you are welcome to. Everyone else will…

You've made a lot of assertions like this but you aren't backing them up with any numbers.

8MB every 10 minutes is 13KB/s. Do Australians not look at youtube either, because when I was there well over a decade ago it worked pretty well. Even a full node syncing multiple people -while the blocks are full at 8MB- is no problem. Also there are many orders of magnitude left before running a full node exceeds the capacity of a $15/month VPS and many orders of magnitude before a person at home could no longer sync with a full node off a basic internet connection. That is also ignoring the fact that most people don't need or want to sync with the full chain, but to be clear, hundreds of millions can and would still be able to.

I see arguments like this from time to time, usually from the same small group of people, but there is nothing but crickets when I show them basic numbers and ask for how they came to this conclusion.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Starts Trading

#80

Post by mhluongo »

vertex-four wrote: post #28
mhluongo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lightning's network topology is still up in the air. Saying "routing is well studied" is well and good, but from what I've read doing it with payment channels without devolving to hub and spoke isn't trivial.

I would argue that that is mostly because cryptocurrency developers are mostly incapable of reading CS papers, but that's neither here nor there.

I'm sure your input would be welcome :)

There have been a couple posts recently debating different network configurations [0]. It seems like the difference between Lightning's routing and other networks is that channels need re-balancing, but I don't know the literature well enough to know if there's an existing, well-studied analog.

[0] https://hackernoon.com/simulating-a-decentralized-lightning-...

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