Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace • Hacker News Board

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#71

Post by avaer » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 8:55 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #64

avaer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, if that's indeed the case then this is free, feeless and decentralized only to the depth of its landing page.

What part of it do you think is not decentralised? And how would you propose they implement the system in such a way that Bitcoin miners are incentivised to include fee-less transactions? In terms of fee structure, it is quite clearly an improvement over centralised marketplaces. OpenBazaar is not charging any fees.

If e.g. Shapeshift can walk away with my money when they feel like it, that's not decentralized. If the law can kill off Shapeshift for shady transactions and not following sufficient KYC protocol, that's not decentralized.

I'm not sure how to solve the problem of Bitcoin transaction fees. Much, much smarter people than me haven't. But I'm also not promoting a Bitcoin service with "no transaction fees".

And I'm not sure I agree that this is an improvement over centralized markets. With those I can buy escrow and some amount of assurance I'm not being swindled by the platform itself, which the platform is on the hook for legally.

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#72

Post by jstanley » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 8:58 PM UTC

avaer wrote: post #71

jstanley wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of it do you think is not decentralised? And how would you propose they implement the system in such a way that Bitcoin miners are incentivised to include fee-less transactions? In terms of fee structure, it is quite clearly an improvement over centralised marketplaces. OpenBazaar is not charging any fees.

If e.g. Shapeshift can walk away with my money when they feel like it, that's not decentralized. If the law can kill off Shapeshift for shady transactions and not following sufficient KYC protocol, that's not decentralized. I'm not sure how to solve the problem of Bitcoin transaction fees. Much, much smarter people than me haven't. But I'm also not promoting a Bitcoin service with "no transaction fees". And I'm not s…

OK, using ShapeShift isn't decentralised, but you don't have to use ShapeShift unless you want to pay in a currency that the merchat doesn't want to accept. (And even then, you don't have to use ShapeShift. You can use any currency exchange).

You can buy escrow on OpenBazaar too.

You can't really be swindled by the OpenBazaar platform. It's just open source code that you run yourself. There's no way for anybody to jump in and change the rules from underneath you.

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#73

Post by jstanley » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #68

jstanley wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are 2 reasons: 1.) Lack of anonymity - AFAIK it doesn't yet have integration with tor-or-similar, although this is coming soon 2.) Network effects - hardly anyone is buying or selling anything on OpenBazaar, so there's not much motivation for anyone new to move there. I hope this changes. I use eBay for almost all of my online purchases, and I would love to see the day where OpenBazaar replaces eBay for…

#1 is false since February: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go/pull/342

Not sure that's present in a stable release yet, but looks promising I agree.

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#74

Post by chroma » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

thomastjeffery wrote: post #43

matthewbauer wrote: post #26

Am I the only one here that gets a little terrified by this kind of thing? I mean I'm fine if they're just selling recreational drugs. But, we all know that there are much worse things people will be selling on these crypto markets than just plain old LSD and marijuana. Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff?

> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff? Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people , not themselves . Law enforcement is fundamentally incapable of protecting people from themselves. That is why the "war on drugs" has been so ineffective. The most effective method to stop the drug (opioid, etc.) epidemi…

> Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people, not themselves.

Two points:

1. I can think of many counterexamples to this: Self-harm, suicide attempts, people doing dumb stuff like playing with fireworks. We as a society have decided that if you're a danger to yourself, it's OK to have other people stop you and lock you up until you're not. Of course, people disagree on what counts as self-endangerment.

2. Self-endangerment is not the reason most anti-drug people favor strict punishments. They're concerned about the effect drug use has on society. eg: Worrying that addicts will commit crimes to get their next fix.

I lean very libertarian, so my view is that these substances should be legal and taxed commensurate to the harm they cause. That said, I feel compelled to find flaws in arguments no matter what side they're on.

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#75

Post by mhluongo » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

abrkn wrote: post #22

jasode wrote: post #14

Seems to be some confusion... To clarify OpenBazaar's "No Transaction Fees" , it means there are no marketplace platform fees. To compare with ebay, to sell an item for $500 and charge $20 for shipping ($520): - eBay fee: ~10% of final bid value + 10% of any shipping charge added on = $52 - PayPal fee: 2.9% of payment = $15.08 The bitcoin network would eliminate the PayPal fees. (The bitcoin fees would still exist bu…

It is a good idea to pay someone for escrow services.

IIRC OpenBazaar still has paid escrow- it's just cheaper than eBay's fees.

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#76

Post by mhluongo » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

avaer wrote: post #4

> How are there no fees and restrictions? _Someone_ is paying the TX fees. Who? It can't be a single party, especially the developers, without betraying the decentralization. > Pay with 50+ cryptocurrencies on OpenBazaar: Bitcoin, Ethereum, Litecoin, Zcash, Dash, etc. Seller receives payment in Bitcoin How does this work without a middleman or central party?

Right now it's with ShapeShift, but down the road you could use cross-chain swaps to accomplish something similar

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#77

Post by jstanley » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

avip wrote: post #69

jstanley wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, there are absolutely no illegal drugs currently being sold on OpenBazaar. It's almost exclusively novelty items at the moment. Secondly, if Alice wants to sell crack, and Bob wants to buy it, I don't see why you or I or anybody else has the right to stand in the middle and say that's not allowed. I accept that you think it's not good for Alice and Bob to be able to transact however they like, but you must ac…

Does the same logic apply if Bob is your 11 YO son?

Yes. It's a parent's responsibility to teach their kids about the risks of drugs.

It's not everyone-else-in-the-world's responsibility to avoid building marketplaces where anyone can transact freely with anyone else.

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#78

Post by jstanley » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

peterhunt wrote: post #70

jstanley wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's somewhat of a strawman argument: if you think dealing crack is the same as dealing human beings, where do you even draw the line? Is it not OK to deal in anything, on the basis that it could be a human being if you changed it to a human being? The difference when dealing a human being is it's no longer a transaction between only Alice and Bob. There's now a third person involved who has every right to object t…

Law enforcement needs the same set of tools to solve both of these problems. You are proposing that these tools should go away, right?

"Both" of these problems? The problem is dealing in human beings, right? What's the other problem?

Am I proposing that the tools to solve human trafficking go away? I wouldn't put it that way. Lots of societal progress comes with trade-offs. There will certainly be challenges for law enforcement but I'm confident they'll solve them.

The world isn't going to descend into a chaotic state of everyone buying and selling everyone else just because free-trade becomes ubiquitous.

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#79

Post by matthewbauer » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

thomastjeffery wrote: post #43

matthewbauer wrote: post #26

Am I the only one here that gets a little terrified by this kind of thing? I mean I'm fine if they're just selling recreational drugs. But, we all know that there are much worse things people will be selling on these crypto markets than just plain old LSD and marijuana. Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff?

> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff? Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people , not themselves . Law enforcement is fundamentally incapable of protecting people from themselves. That is why the "war on drugs" has been so ineffective. The most effective method to stop the drug (opioid, etc.) epidemi…

Although I mention it in the comment, drugs aren't my primary concern. What about for example: child porn, forced prostitution, contract killings, etc. These things all existed before crypto-markets, it just seems like crypto-markets make life so much easier for these types of things (if they are as effective as advertised). Sure, we can police the "meat space" part of these transactions, but at what cost?

Re: Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace

#80

Post by seanp2k2 » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 9:18 PM UTC

thomastjeffery wrote: post #43

matthewbauer wrote: post #26

Am I the only one here that gets a little terrified by this kind of thing? I mean I'm fine if they're just selling recreational drugs. But, we all know that there are much worse things people will be selling on these crypto markets than just plain old LSD and marijuana. Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff?

> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff? Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people , not themselves . Law enforcement is fundamentally incapable of protecting people from themselves. That is why the "war on drugs" has been so ineffective. The most effective method to stop the drug (opioid, etc.) epidemi…

I think that the really really bad stuff here is e.g. Human trafficking, chemical weapons, assassination services, etc...not even any drugs, and as you've pointed out, people harming other people. How do you police that here, or don't you?