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The long-term cost of sexual harassment

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Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#71

Post by owebmaster »

pm90 wrote: post #69
owebmaster wrote: post #68

And how do you think that individuals' behavior can lower the friction of "male-female" relationship in a societal scale so a man wouldn't abuse a powerful position to approach and seduce a woman and that a woman wouldn't abuse its position of dozens of men courting her?

You can't change fucking everything. I like Mz's suggestion because (s)he isn't advocating any specific action, just that people think hard and rationally about their actions. There will always be disparity while this change takes place, if it does. There will be both men and women who abuse the system and get away with it with no repercussions. But you can't use that as justification for acting the way they do.

The same way you can't charge just half of the people for this mess, which is exactly what happens in the current trend of digital feminism. Look at my downvotes without replies, it has a lot of meaning. And it is sick. You just can't talk that women are equally guilty for what they are complaining.

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#72

Post by Mz »

owebmaster wrote: post #71
pm90 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't change fucking everything. I like Mz's suggestion because (s)he isn't advocating any specific action, just that people think hard and rationally about their actions. There will always be disparity while this change takes place, if it does. There will be both men and women who abuse the system and get away with it with no repercussions. But you can't use that as justification for acting the way they do.

The same way you can't charge just half of the people for this mess, which is exactly what happens in the current trend of digital feminism. Look at my downvotes without replies, it has a lot of meaning. And it is sick. You just can't talk that women are equally guilty for what they are complaining.

I actually talk a lot about this topic in a very evenhanded manner and I blog about it that way. I recently did a series of 5 posts that were evenhanded. This is the last one and it has links to the earlier four: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aS6PrldE6ZTwWHgiSSgiBWNg...

The problem is that your remarks are not coming across like "men and women are both adults and both need to work at solving this." You are coming across like "Well, individual men have zero responsibility at all for this problem, even when they are obviously being incredibly aggressive and predatory."

If you don't mean to come across that way, you will need to work on how you talk about such things.

Best.

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#73

Post by owebmaster »

Mz wrote: post #72
owebmaster wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way you can't charge just half of the people for this mess, which is exactly what happens in the current trend of digital feminism. Look at my downvotes without replies, it has a lot of meaning. And it is sick. You just can't talk that women are equally guilty for what they are complaining.

I actually talk a lot about this topic in a very evenhanded manner and I blog about it that way. I recently did a series of 5 posts that were evenhanded. This is the last one and it has links to the earlier four: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aS6PrldE6ZTwWHgiSSgiBWNg... The problem is that your remarks are not coming across like "men and women are both adults and both need to work at solving this." You are comi…

> You are coming across like "Well, individual men have zero responsibility at all for this problem, even when they are obviously being incredibly aggressive and predatory."

> If you don't mean to come across that way, you will need to work on how you talk about such things.

Yeah, this isn't what I mean (I'm not a native english speaker, but I don't think I wrote it entirely wrong, but your emphasis is not mine's). Your previous reply nailed it,

> When ordinary people stop doing things like that, then predators have a lot less latitude for pursuing their ugly goals. When you reduce their latitude enough, you may find that in order to get laid at all, they need to behave something like decent human beings instead of overentitled rapey bastards.

But is exactly this my point: It is up to the women to correct/validate this behavior, when men starting to change their way. Because if in the long term this strategy doesn't work better, most of the men will drop it and start to approach women in the way they see it working. And this is my point when I say that it is not my (or individuals) fault. In an anthropological analysis, this is the same reason women evolved to rely in men for security and better chances of survival: it worked. Now we have a much better social security structure in the world so naturally the usefulness of men for women reached a new low in most countries :P

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#74

Post by Mz »

owebmaster wrote: post #73
Mz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually talk a lot about this topic in a very evenhanded manner and I blog about it that way. I recently did a series of 5 posts that were evenhanded. This is the last one and it has links to the earlier four: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aS6PrldE6ZTwWHgiSSgiBWNg... The problem is that your remarks are not coming across like "men and women are both adults and both need to work at solving this." You are comi…

> You are coming across like "Well, individual men have zero responsibility at all for this problem, even when they are obviously being incredibly aggressive and predatory." > If you don't mean to come across that way, you will need to work on how you talk about such things. Yeah, this isn't what I mean (I'm not a native english speaker, but I don't think I wrote it entirely wrong, but your emphasis is not mine's). Y…

You are guilty of what you are accusing "digital feminism" of: You only want half the people to be held responsible, just the other half. Some women want to blame men 100% and play the victim card themselves and that doesn't work. But men saying that it is 100% on women to defend themselves is equally broken.

And it sounds really, really ugly, like you just don't want to be bothered to behave better yourself.

I talk all the time about the fact that it is a societal problem and we need to address it at that level. But addressing it at that level involves figuring out what individual's can do differently. Because society is merely an aggregate of a lot of individuals. It does not exist separately on its own or something. It is the collective result of many individual choices. You change it in part by coming up with mental models for effective actions that individuals can take.

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#75

Post by owebmaster »

Mz wrote: post #74
owebmaster wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are coming across like "Well, individual men have zero responsibility at all for this problem, even when they are obviously being incredibly aggressive and predatory." > If you don't mean to come across that way, you will need to work on how you talk about such things. Yeah, this isn't what I mean (I'm not a native english speaker, but I don't think I wrote it entirely wrong, but your emphasis is not mine's). Y…

You are guilty of what you are accusing "digital feminism" of: You only want half the people to be held responsible, just the other half. Some women want to blame men 100% and play the victim card themselves and that doesn't work. But men saying that it is 100% on women to defend themselves is equally broken. And it sounds really, really ugly, like you just don't want to be bothered to behave better yourself. I talk…

> You are guilty of what you are accusing "digital feminism" of: You only want half the people to be held responsible, just the other half. Some women want to blame men 100% and play the victim card themselves and that doesn't work. But men saying that it is 100% on women to defend themselves is equally broken.

No, I've been saying that it is our problem all the time. You keep saying that I'm trying to free men off their stupid behavior and what I'm saying is that men's stupid behavior are frequently awarded by women. Change this and you change that.

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#76

Post by Mz »

owebmaster wrote: post #75
Mz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are guilty of what you are accusing "digital feminism" of: You only want half the people to be held responsible, just the other half. Some women want to blame men 100% and play the victim card themselves and that doesn't work. But men saying that it is 100% on women to defend themselves is equally broken. And it sounds really, really ugly, like you just don't want to be bothered to behave better yourself. I talk…

> You are guilty of what you are accusing "digital feminism" of: You only want half the people to be held responsible, just the other half. Some women want to blame men 100% and play the victim card themselves and that doesn't work. But men saying that it is 100% on women to defend themselves is equally broken. No, I've been saying that it is our problem all the time. You keep saying that I'm trying to free men off t…

No, your point is "women need to change" while claiming it is a problem when women say "men need to change." I am saying BOTH need to change.

I get that in an atmosphere where most people are saying "men need to change" it is easy to fall into the bad habit of saying "women need to change" when maybe you really mean "women ALSO need to change." But you are not saying "women also need to change." You have made multiple posts here, and your position is very consistently that it is 100% the responsibility of women.

If you don't mean that, now would be a good time to just say "well, my English is not so good and I must not be explaining myself well" and drop it, rather than continuing to insist I am wrong, because it is only serving to dig your grave deeper.

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#77

Post by owebmaster »

Mz wrote: post #76
owebmaster wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are guilty of what you are accusing "digital feminism" of: You only want half the people to be held responsible, just the other half. Some women want to blame men 100% and play the victim card themselves and that doesn't work. But men saying that it is 100% on women to defend themselves is equally broken. No, I've been saying that it is our problem all the time. You keep saying that I'm trying to free men off t…

No, your point is "women need to change" while claiming it is a problem when women say "men need to change." I am saying BOTH need to change. I get that in an atmosphere where most people are saying "men need to change" it is easy to fall into the bad habit of saying "women need to change" when maybe you really mean "women ALSO need to change." But you are not saying "women also need to change." You have made multipl…

Ok so now you are "womansplaining" me even with my writing telling the opposite and I dig my own grave?

Yeah, it became crystal clear that women also need to change.

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#78

Post by dang »

owebmaster wrote: post #68

And how do you think that individuals' behavior can lower the friction of "male-female" relationship in a societal scale so a man wouldn't abuse a powerful position to approach and seduce a woman and that a woman wouldn't abuse its position of dozens of men courting her?

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14822155 and marked it off-topic.

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#79

Post by owebmaster »

dang wrote: post #78
owebmaster wrote: post #68

And how do you think that individuals' behavior can lower the friction of "male-female" relationship in a societal scale so a man wouldn't abuse a powerful position to approach and seduce a woman and that a woman wouldn't abuse its position of dozens of men courting her?

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14822155 and marked it off-topic.

Why?

> on: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

Re: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

#80

Post by dang »

owebmaster wrote: post #79
dang wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14822155 and marked it off-topic.

Why? > on: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

Because it started a flamewar. Comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14823319 are particularly bad.
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