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Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

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Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#71
post #53

Well, that's a remarkably uninformative announcement. Here's an attempt at a neutral tl;dr from a Bitcoin amateur. Bitcoin is currently suffering from significant scaling problems, which lead to high transaction fees. Numerous proposals to fix the scaling issue have been proposed, the two main camps being "increase the block size" and "muddle through by discarding less useful data" (aka Segregated Witness/SegWit). Ho…

It is probably not possible to solve the scaling problems on-chain - a secure decentralized consensus on a global scale cannot be fast. Currently the bitcoin protocol processes about 7 transactions per second. Doubling the speed by doubling blocks will not make it much closer to the 50K transactions per second of a system like VISA. But it is probably possible to scale the transaction system off-chain - with https://…

I'm really tired of hearing the "increasing the block size won't suffice"-argument. Yes, increasing blocks to 10 MB won't give us VISA-scale, but it will allow Bitcoin to serve TEN TIMES AS MANY USERS! I can't believe how many otherwise intelligent people fail to see that this is desirable. It's like driving your car at 10 km/h per hour on the high-way and refusing to increase your speed because that would still not make you as fast as a rocket.

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#72

Well, that's a remarkably uninformative announcement. Here's an attempt at a neutral tl;dr from a Bitcoin amateur. Bitcoin is currently suffering from significant scaling problems, which lead to high transaction fees. Numerous proposals to fix the scaling issue have been proposed, the two main camps being "increase the block size" and "muddle through by discarding less useful data" (aka Segregated Witness/SegWit). Ho…

You skipped the option that's closest to consensus! SegWit2x has industry support and has a short enough window to lock-in before the Aug 1st UASF EDIT: Quick reference https://medium.com/@wintercooled/the-road-to-segwit-activati...

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Segwit_support

None of the core developers support segwit2x.

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#73
post #71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is probably not possible to solve the scaling problems on-chain - a secure decentralized consensus on a global scale cannot be fast. Currently the bitcoin protocol processes about 7 transactions per second. Doubling the speed by doubling blocks will not make it much closer to the 50K transactions per second of a system like VISA. But it is probably possible to scale the transaction system off-chain - with https://…

I'm really tired of hearing the "increasing the block size won't suffice"-argument. Yes, increasing blocks to 10 MB won't give us VISA-scale, but it will allow Bitcoin to serve TEN TIMES AS MANY USERS! I can't believe how many otherwise intelligent people fail to see that this is desirable. It's like driving your car at 10 km/h per hour on the high-way and refusing to increase your speed because that would still not…

Well - increasing the block size is not costless - it is not just pushing the gas pedal a little more like in your example.

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#74
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike the UASF timebomb, SegWit2x won't activate unless there's 80%+ support, so it's not going to trigger a fork. (Well, technically it will, but if activated the non-SegWit2x rump will quickly be reduced to irrelevance.)

There's currently 86.5% support.

That's 86.5% miners signalling to signal support. Segwit2x is still yet to have a working and tested implementation.

Would you support something which has not been fundamentally tested?

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#75
post #53

Well, that's a remarkably uninformative announcement. Here's an attempt at a neutral tl;dr from a Bitcoin amateur. Bitcoin is currently suffering from significant scaling problems, which lead to high transaction fees. Numerous proposals to fix the scaling issue have been proposed, the two main camps being "increase the block size" and "muddle through by discarding less useful data" (aka Segregated Witness/SegWit). Ho…

It is probably not possible to solve the scaling problems on-chain - a secure decentralized consensus on a global scale cannot be fast. Currently the bitcoin protocol processes about 7 transactions per second. Doubling the speed by doubling blocks will not make it much closer to the 50K transactions per second of a system like VISA. But it is probably possible to scale the transaction system off-chain - with https://…

A counter-argument is that the Lightening work is a proprietary development outside of bitcoin core (lead by Blockstream) and the work is even patent-encumbered.

They state the ip is for defensive purposes only - however that is questionable given that anything they implement, automatically becomes prior-art. It is also contrary to the spirit and practice of the majority of crypto/alt projects.

It is unreasonable to attack miners for having interests, without disclosing that other interests may benefit from the current levels of network congestion that a skeptic would say are caused by having artificially small blocks.

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#76
post #59

Well, that's a remarkably uninformative announcement. Here's an attempt at a neutral tl;dr from a Bitcoin amateur. Bitcoin is currently suffering from significant scaling problems, which lead to high transaction fees. Numerous proposals to fix the scaling issue have been proposed, the two main camps being "increase the block size" and "muddle through by discarding less useful data" (aka Segregated Witness/SegWit). Ho…

A neutral response would probably not use the phrasing 'muddle through' with regards to the solution endorsed by most of the technical experts in the Bitcoin space. ---- Right now there are 3 implementations of Bitcoin in the wild, and each of the 3 will react differently to different network events. The network is essentially splitting apart, with each fragment driven by a different faction. If you don't know what t…

> When the split happens, sell all of your coins on the forks that you disagree with, and use the resulting money to buy coins on your preferred fork.

Or keep all the forked coins in case you are wrong ?

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#77
I wish there was a concise way to explain what is going on, but there really isn't. I'm going to do my best though.

Bitcoin is a consensus system. This means that the goal is to have everyone believe the exact same thing at all times. Bitcoin achieves this by having everyone run identical software which is able to compile a list of transactions, and from there decide what money belongs to which person.

As you can imagine, it's a problem if you have $10, and Alice believes she owns that $10, Bob believes he owns that same $10, and Charlie believes that the money was never sent to either of them. These three people can't interact with eachother, because they can't agree on who owns the money. Spending money has no meaning here.

In Bitcoin, there are very precise rules that define how money is allowed to move around. These rules are identical on all machines, and because they are identical for everyone on the network, nobody is ever confused about whether or not they own money.

Unfortunately, there are now 3 versions of the software floating around (well... there are more. But there are only 3 that seem to have any real traction right now, though even that is hard to be certain about). Currently, all versions of the software have the exact same set of rules, but on August 1st, one of those versions of the software will be running a different set of rules. So, depending, people may not be able to agree on the ownership of money. If you are running one version, and your friend is running another, your friend may receive that money, or they may not. This is of course a bad situation for both of you, and its even worse if you are working with automated systems, because an automated system likely has no idea that this is happening, and it may have no way to fix any costly mistakes.

It gets worse. The version of the software that is splitting off actually has the power to destroy the other two versions of the software. I don't know how to put this in simple terms either.

In Bitcoin, it is possible to have multiple simultaneous histories. As long as all of the histories are mathematically correct (that is, they follow all of the formal rules of Bitcoin), you know which history is the real history based on how much work is behind it. The history with the most work wins. If the history is illegal, you ignore it no matter how much work is behind it.

So, this troublemaker version of the software (the UASF version) has a compatible set of rules with the other 2 versions. Basically, everything that it does, the other versions see as valid. So if its history is the longest, the other versions will treat that history as the one true history. The thing is, this troublemaker version of the software is stubborn, and so even if the histories of the other two versions have more work, it'll ignore them and focus only on its own version of history.

So, the dramatic / problematic situation happens if the UASF software initially has less work in its history. What'll happen is a split, and two different versions of Bitcoin will exist at the exact same time. But then, if the UASF software ends up with more work after some period of time (days, weeks, etc.), the other versions of the software will prefer its version of history over their own.

Basically, what happens there is that entire days, or weeks, etc. of history get completely obliterated. The UASF history becomes canonical, and the histories built by the other versions all get destroyed. Miners lose all of their money, people who accepted payments lose those payments, people who made payments get those payments back. Basically a lot of chaos where people end up losing probably millions and millions of dollars.

----

I hope that helps. This whole situation is screwed up, and really the best thing to do is to put your coins in a cold wallet (one that you control, not an exchange), and then just not send or receive any coins for a few weeks. Let the dust settle, and then resume using Bitcoin once its clear that the turmoil is over.

----

The most likely situation here is that nothing interesting happens at all. My personal opinion is that the vast majority of people who matter in Bitcoin aren't even paying attention to the drama, and something dramatic is really only possible if the majority of Bitcoin users opt-in to doing something. I don't think that's the case at all, which means essentially nothing interesting is going to happen.

But, I could be wrong. There's a non-zero chance that something very unfortunate happens, and there's a pretty easy way to isolate yourself: don't send or receive any Bitcoins starting July 31st, and don't resume until it's clear that the storm has passed. It'll likely take less than a week to come to a well-defined conclusion.

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#78

Well, that's a remarkably uninformative announcement. Here's an attempt at a neutral tl;dr from a Bitcoin amateur. Bitcoin is currently suffering from significant scaling problems, which lead to high transaction fees. Numerous proposals to fix the scaling issue have been proposed, the two main camps being "increase the block size" and "muddle through by discarding less useful data" (aka Segregated Witness/SegWit). Ho…

> However, any changes require consensus from the miners who create Bitcoins and process transactions, and because it's not in their best incentive to do anything to reduce those transaction fees, no change has received majority consensus.

This is an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of the miners, and the math is really simple: imagine a network on top of Bitcoin, e.g. lightning.network, which can process 10 million transactions off-chain and settle it on the Bitcoin blockchain using only a single transaction. Imagine if every one of those 10 million off-chain transactions paid just 0.01 cent in fees... this would earn the payment processor $1000, which can only be realized by publishing a Bitcoin transaction, in competition with everyone else making a lot on off-chain fees. The result is that off-chain profits (in the form of fees) would allow off-chain payment processors to pay huge blockchain fees, because they can deduce it from the profit they've made on off-chain fees. Nothing, in my opinion, will increase Bitcoin fees more than layer 2 protocols creating more users and transactions (because fees are paid per off-chain transaction).

The point some miners are missing is that one billion off-chain transactions each paying a 0.01 cent fee is more profitable than 2,000 on-chain transactions paying $1 each. And if everyone is able to earn $100,000 in fees by publishing a single Bitcoin transaction, this must push up Bitcoin fees, since people will be competing on getting into the chain with the bidding power from their earned profits.

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#79
post #71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is probably not possible to solve the scaling problems on-chain - a secure decentralized consensus on a global scale cannot be fast. Currently the bitcoin protocol processes about 7 transactions per second. Doubling the speed by doubling blocks will not make it much closer to the 50K transactions per second of a system like VISA. But it is probably possible to scale the transaction system off-chain - with https://…

I'm really tired of hearing the "increasing the block size won't suffice"-argument. Yes, increasing blocks to 10 MB won't give us VISA-scale, but it will allow Bitcoin to serve TEN TIMES AS MANY USERS! I can't believe how many otherwise intelligent people fail to see that this is desirable. It's like driving your car at 10 km/h per hour on the high-way and refusing to increase your speed because that would still not…

I think the car analogy is not quite correct. A car is able to dynamically change its velocity, bitcoin can't easylie do that. It would be much better to find a genereal solution that fix that problem altogether, instead of finding a solution that works for the next few years and might require future forks.

Re: Bitcoin – Potential Network Disruption on July 31st

#80
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A neutral response would probably not use the phrasing 'muddle through' with regards to the solution endorsed by most of the technical experts in the Bitcoin space. ---- Right now there are 3 implementations of Bitcoin in the wild, and each of the 3 will react differently to different network events. The network is essentially splitting apart, with each fragment driven by a different faction. If you don't know what t…

> When the split happens, sell all of your coins on the forks that you disagree with, and use the resulting money to buy coins on your preferred fork. Or keep all the forked coins in case you are wrong ?

If you are keeping all the forked coins, you probably don't have a strong ideological opinion. It's not about being 'wrong' in this case, it's about ideological alignment. If you follow my advice, you will more or less end up with the same amount of money as you started with, regardless of where the prices of the coins end up (as long as you wait through the early volatility stages).

If you aren't ideologically aligned, holding onto all forks is a perfectly sane choice.

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