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Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

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Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#71

Post by LMYahooTFY »

FireBeyond wrote: post #26
jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s Model S outsells Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series combined in the US Those cars are not even in the same class, of course Tesla would outsell them. Compare sales of the model S in Germany with the C class, BMW 3 (or maybe the 5) and just forget about Porsche. Other cars you could compare it with are larger sedans of the premium variety Japanese manufacturers (Toyota -> Lexus, Nissan ->…

Not sure why you're downvoted, you're right. Tesla S starts at $57K. - Mercedes S starts at $97K - Panamera starts at $86K - 6/7 series start at $81K/$83K. You're right, you're looking at mid-range Audis and the like. But having been in a 2016 S and several Audis the interior quality is hugely different. The Audi feels great, and the S felt like my eight year old Altima. I don't want to sound like a hater - the Tesla…

"Class" is not determined exclusively by price point as much as automotive magazines assert that is the only delineation.

It's going to put people in or out of a price tier, but how many people that can afford both are going "oh no, that's just below the price tier I want to buy into".

Sure that's a subtle piece of the puzzle, not a conscious decision.

When you look at the other pieces, like features and performance, the Model S is on par with the rest of the luxury sedans or better. Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Bentley, Rolls, etc.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#72

Post by greglindahl »

jacquesm wrote: post #15
Robotbeat wrote: post #8

20,000 cars per month by December is an incredibly ambitious goal. If achieved, they have a very good chance of getting their 500,000 cars in 2018, something that virtually everyone (including myself) thought could not be done. So two things: 1) If you don't have a dog in this race, wait and see if Tesla really does achieve these goals. Outrageous claims require strong evidence. 2) If you're a competitor, now is not…

> Tesla’s Model S outsells Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series combined in the US Those cars are not even in the same class, of course Tesla would outsell them. Compare sales of the model S in Germany with the C class, BMW 3 (or maybe the 5) and just forget about Porsche. Other cars you could compare it with are larger sedans of the premium variety Japanese manufacturers (Toyota -> Lexus, Nissan ->…

Maybe you're getting downvoted because there's more than one way to define "in the same class"? Just a thought.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#73

Post by zeep »

jacquesm wrote: post #48
Jakob wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a little different for electric cars, though. Have a look at their current top speeds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_cars_currentl... Many max out at only ~130 km/h (~80 mph), most don’t reach 150 km/h (90 mph). The models described in the wiki table are also the maximum power versions of those cars. There are lower versions which don’t even get to this velocity.

130 is the maximum speed in most countries, Germany excepted in Europe, in most states in the US it's 55 Mph, 70 or 85 (Texas, the exception), so only in Texas or Germany would you run into the situation where your car can't go the legal limit, but it is still more than capable of achieving the minimum speed, and in fact that speed at which the vast majority of the traffic moves. Slower than 130 km/h would be a probl…

but when the speed limit is 70mph, everyone goes ~80mph... and it is probably not a good thing to always go at your car's maximum rated speed, you can't speed up to pass someone for example... (Assuming that the model 3 would have a lower than 130mph limit to differentiate it from its more expensive siblings.)

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#74

Post by Turing_Machine »

pkulak wrote: post #69
Robotbeat wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brakes and drivetrain are either much simpler or experience far less wear on an electric car. And your point about how good internal combustion engines are for the price is exactly what I said earlier. It's pretty amazing that we HAVE been able to make ICEs so cheap and (relatively) reliable, considering how complex they are with so many moving parts. The fact that Tesla had teething issues with their early electric…

Yup. I can't even imagine how cheap, efficient and reliable electric motors will become after the kind of engineering effort applied to ICEs is applied to them.

Electric motors are already ~90% efficient and far more reliable than IC engines, so there's not much gain to be had there.

Advances would be more likely to come in the form of reduced weight (better magnets for PM motors, e.g.) and durability.

After all, it's not like we haven't been using electric motors for roughly the same amount of time as we have IC engines. Heck, most of us own way more electric motors than IC -- kitchen appliances, HVAC, computer drive motors, laundry equipment. Even the car usually has a dozen or two electric motors in it compared to one IC engine. :-)

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#75

Post by zippergz »

babyrainbow wrote: post #58
vvanders wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone over on the Tesla forums was aggregating S/7 series sales from public records and they was a significant and sustained drop since the S was introduced.

Discussion around something similar... https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6dj815/tesla_m...

That's about the 3 series, which matches my experience better. A 3 series is a much cheaper car than the Model S (or 7 Series or S Class). I have no doubt that people who had 3 Series are now considering Teslas, and much credit to Tesla for creating a product that convinces these people to spend so much more money.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#76

Post by chaostheory »

chaostheory wrote: post #56
narrowtux wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do live in Germany, and it is a concern for me. The VW e-up costs 22k EUR and has a top speed of 130 km/h, the BMW i3 full electric version w/o range extender costs about 35k EUR and has a top speed of 150 km/h. This performance would be fine if I bought a car under 10k EUR but not for this price.

Just adding more data: The 2017 Volt (Opel Ampera-e) has a top speed of about 160 km/h / 100 mph for 35k EUR, $33k USD Pretty sure the Model 3 can acheive this, if not be faster, since this is just the norm and not 'fast'.

Forgot to add - I do 80-85 mph 128-136 kmh 5 days a week on my Volt

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#77

Post by [deleted] »

chaostheory wrote: post #56
narrowtux wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do live in Germany, and it is a concern for me. The VW e-up costs 22k EUR and has a top speed of 130 km/h, the BMW i3 full electric version w/o range extender costs about 35k EUR and has a top speed of 150 km/h. This performance would be fine if I bought a car under 10k EUR but not for this price.

Just adding more data: The 2017 Volt (Opel Ampera-e) has a top speed of about 160 km/h / 100 mph for 35k EUR, $33k USD Pretty sure the Model 3 can acheive this, if not be faster, since this is just the norm and not 'fast'.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#78

Post by FireBeyond »

LMYahooTFY wrote: post #71
FireBeyond wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're downvoted, you're right. Tesla S starts at $57K. - Mercedes S starts at $97K - Panamera starts at $86K - 6/7 series start at $81K/$83K. You're right, you're looking at mid-range Audis and the like. But having been in a 2016 S and several Audis the interior quality is hugely different. The Audi feels great, and the S felt like my eight year old Altima. I don't want to sound like a hater - the Tesla…

"Class" is not determined exclusively by price point as much as automotive magazines assert that is the only delineation. It's going to put people in or out of a price tier, but how many people that can afford both are going "oh no, that's just below the price tier I want to buy into". Sure that's a subtle piece of the puzzle, not a conscious decision. When you look at the other pieces, like features and performance,…

> When you look at the other pieces, like features and performance

Yeah, have you compared say "cabin quality" to a Bentley or Rolls? That's another piece that falls way short. Even to a C/E Mercedes.

Door handles being ... problematic, etc, are things that push the S from being "on par" with those cars you name.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#79

Post by Roritharr »

jjallen wrote: post #14
Roritharr wrote: post #13

I really wonder how the top-speed is on those cars in their various configurations. For me this is the deal breaker on all other "affordable" solutions thus far.

The top-speed is really a prime concern for choosing your car? Interesting. Do you live in a no-speed-limit jurisdiction, such as Germany?

Yes, I live in Germany. I have the same discussion roughly every month on HN[1]. No I'm not a reckless driver, I'm a family father that tries his best to drive safely. Just going 120km/h on the Autobahn in Germany is often times not the safest way.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14423002

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#80

Post by Retric »

rgbrenner wrote: post #42
giobox wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends which Model S you buy though. It's possible to spec one well north of 100k (isn't a P100D around 140ish?), at which point comparisons to S-classes and 7 series and so on surely must cross the minds of some buyers. I completely agree regarding cabin quality though.

Looking at the price range just reinforces that they're not in the same class: Telsa S: $57-140k Mercedes S-Class: $97-226k That's a 70% increase at the bottom and 60% at the top.

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2017/cost-to-own/ https://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/s-class/2017/cost-to-o...

  2017 Tesla Model S Average Price Paid $86,200
  2017 Mercedes-Benz S-Class Average Price Paid $98,958
Which is just under 15%.
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