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Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

krebsonsecurity.com

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Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#71

Post by NumberSix »

What is striking to me is that the table of AP tests taken (2016) in the article clearly states:

Calculus AB 302,532 Calculus BC 118,707

for a total of 421,239 students taking this demanding technical subject and exam in 2016 (one year). Undoubtedly, in this day and age of cheap readily available computers with more power than a 1980's Cray supercomputer, most of these students both have computers and have undoubtedly done lots of programming whether they have taken AP Computer Science or not.

As for Microsoft, they have announced numerous layoffs of tens of thousands of highly skilled engineers in the last few years, for example:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-layoffs-of-18000-empl...

Many in Finland which consistently ranks TOP in international ratings of education, math, and science.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#72

Post by zxcmx »

omot wrote: post #58

I think the question we should really be asking ourselves is why so many valuable tech companies hail from the US, specifically the bay area. Having grown up in the Bay Area, there weren't any more special focus on mathematics / computer science in school, in fact we were encouraged to pursue whatever we wanted to pursue. If we felt like we were bad at math, we weren't forced into it, we should only pursue math if we…

Network effects and a unique investment cycle are the root causes IMHO. It's a machine that vacuums up talent, powered by money.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#73

Post by omot »

samangan wrote: post #65
omot wrote: post #58

I think the question we should really be asking ourselves is why so many valuable tech companies hail from the US, specifically the bay area. Having grown up in the Bay Area, there weren't any more special focus on mathematics / computer science in school, in fact we were encouraged to pursue whatever we wanted to pursue. If we felt like we were bad at math, we weren't forced into it, we should only pursue math if we…

The origins of Silicon Valley being a technological hub go back all the way to WWII and the economy of the early computer industry. So, I feel the USA being an economic and military superpower is a pretty easy explanation for why 'Silicon Valley' exists in the bay area today and not somewhere else. Obviously, there have been many years and many technological revolutions since those early days but there are pretty cle…

I'm not sure I could attribute the technology hub we see to WWII. Most technology advancement in America was happening in Bell Labs during WWII (The lab was located in New Jersey).

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#74

Post by jabwork »

coldtea wrote: post #34
vrutkovs wrote: post #6

This article may have a point about poor state of basic computer education in US, but its just blindly guesses the reasons on the topic of why so many hackers are from ex-USSR countries. A pretty good level of CS doesn't help here much - take a look at Europe, for instance. The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes…

The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes students think about the weak points of any system, gives them a chance to train their skills etc. Sorry, what? They are better at math because they cheat at exams, and thus they "train" their minds? That's not even wrong.

I read this as the culture of cheating teaches analysis of the system (education /testing) and how to identify weak points and exploit them

Then, using the same analytical skills, students are better prepared to analyze other systems (eg security) and pinpoint/exploit their weakness

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#75

Post by alagappanr »

pm90 wrote: post #9
rndmize wrote: post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well , which turned a lot of people off of it. Eventually, things like Khan Academy might prove a lot more useful in making math and science a culturally desirable field.

Agree! And it's not just limited to math.

I used to study for my engineering entrance exams with the Problems in General Physics book by IE Irodov. They were some of the most challenging and creative problems that I have ever solved. They are quite interesting and require critical thinking to solve. Even the problems I later studied in actual engineering courses didn't come any close.

The books by Russians in any of the STEM courses are really well written and approach problem solving in a way that most American and/or Indian books don't.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#76

Post by JBlue42 »

jrimbault wrote: post #28
ardit33 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from the former communist math teaching being much better, I think it is cultural as well. Being an engineer in a former communist country was (is) a ticket to good life, similar lifestyle to a doctor or a lawyer. In the US being an engineer is seen as boring, and something only nerdy un-socialable people do. Also there are more attractive alternatives to pursue for smart people in the US. Basically, it boils d…

On the other hand, a lack of math teachers could be explained because people who have decent math skills can now live off that skill by being an engineer much more easily than before when they would have been math teachers.

Anecdotes from growing up in the rural US. In high school:

- We went through three math teachers one year because they could find less stressful, better-paying work as accountants.

- My AP Stats teacher had to work weekends at Best Buy.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#77

Post by ivansavz »

pps43 wrote: post #62
nopinsight wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. T…

> why American math curriculum is significantly easier than those in East Asia and Russia? I see three reasons. 1. In the US, no child can be left behind. The only way to do it is to lower the plank for everyone. 2. Over-reliance on standardized testing, judging students and teachers by scores alone. Knowing how and when to intelligently guess on multiple choice questions is rewarded, while ability to communicate wel…

I totally hear you about 3. I was super shocked when I (North America educated) went to visit a university bookstore in Bulgaria. For around $5 I was able to buy a "Mathematical methods of physics" book that covered in 300 pages the material that I had learned from three or four books. Sure the book did almost no "hand holding" and just blaster through the material, but still—it was all there.

I've been recently looking at middle school and high school math textbooks and they're even worse than the books for first-year undergraduates. Yes, treat the reader as if they're an idiot and spell everything out and make them practice the steps. It's like the books are written by helicopter authors who insist on showing you their way. No wonder kids are not into math.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#78

Post by ivansavz »

arkades wrote: post #44
nopinsight wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. T…

The 2-3 grade delta sounds about right. I was a good but not too math student in (Eastern European) country before moving here. I Didn't have to open a math book again for about 3 years. Most of my friends from the same generation of immigrants would give the same number. More was simply expected of us. Not "hoped for" or "aspired to", but expected. And parents weren't at loggerheads with teachers; what teachers said…

For sure parents play a big role. The "forced practice" and colaboration with the teachers certainly are factors. I think a socio economic context also plays an important role.

In an affluent family (as define by people who didn't have to worry about money for three generations) access to education is a given, and therefore less valued.

If your family is poor and your access to education is more uncertain, you'd value what you get to learn a lot more. In this context learning and persevering takes on a dimension of "duty" to help out the family. This feeling of duty towards your family caused by family poverty can transfer for several generations. If you grow up aware of the the struggle that your parents and grandparents had to go through to get to where you are now, you end up feeling obliged to learn this math thing.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#79

Post by ivansavz »

As a STEM person, I like the STEM-makes-you-a-hacker angle of this piece, but I think a more likely causation factor is the need for software piracy.

Most computer users in Eastern Europe do not pay for Windows. They download a pre-cracked installed, or use a serial, or a crack or something. For an entire generation or two, before you'd get access to a computer, you'd have to know how to install a pirated OS on it. Same for all software and media. Piracy, yes, piracy. Terrible, I know, but very motivating. If you learn how to use a computer, you'll have access to stuff. If you don't, then no stuff.

But worry not, the Eastern Block is not about to take over the internet. The stupefying site with the blue header has taken over mind share and now nobody is learning anything about anything anymore, anywhere around the world, equally.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#80

Post by kamaal »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #59
arkades wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2-3 grade delta sounds about right. I was a good but not too math student in (Eastern European) country before moving here. I Didn't have to open a math book again for about 3 years. Most of my friends from the same generation of immigrants would give the same number. More was simply expected of us. Not "hoped for" or "aspired to", but expected. And parents weren't at loggerheads with teachers; what teachers said…

As someone who grew up in India, I can attest this about the education system there too. This whole culture of parents always ready to come and fight with teachers over the smallest things just didn't exist. Other than in extraordinary circumstances, you gave the teacher and the system the benefit of doubt. If you were scolded by the teacher, there was a good chance you would get another scolding back at home once yo…

>>Other than in extraordinary circumstances, you gave the teacher and the system the benefit of doubt.

This is changing or has changed in India. These days you can't do anything much to the child, even if the child is clearly getting spoilt. Parents seem to have very bloated egos these days.

The bad side effect of this is many teachers don't really have the same degree of connect with their pupils these days. So its largely like - "What have I too lose, should you get spoilt' mentality is getting common.

In a generation back during my parents's time, teachers were literally looked up as very honorable and respectable. I even know of an incident which my uncle told. He used to play a lot and was not good at studies, when he passed examinations, my grandparents would go to the school and ask the teachers if they gave their pupil a honest evaluation. They literally would be surprised if he got a pass, and asked the teachers to be honest if had failed. Compare this with parents today.

This reminds of a song in Hindi from the movie '3 idiots':

kandho ko kitabo ke boj pe jhukaya, rishwat dena to khud papa ne sikhaya

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