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Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

nytimes.com

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Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#71

Post by averagewall »

all_usernames wrote: post #35

America is in a sad, sad state when there is no recourse for something like this. What are we, afraid of diplomatically insulting an Islamist dictatorship?

Turkey is a democracy. Most people there want Erdogan's government and they voted for it.

Diplomatic immunity is part of international law and exists for good reasons. See the Vienna Convention:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomati...

If you think that concept is wrong, why not address that or argue for the US to be exempt from the Vienna Convention?

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#72

Post by workerIbe »

mschuster91 wrote: post #60
workerIbe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey's strategic importance is nothing new, it's just where it is on the board.

"strategic importance" is not an excuse for letting such things (or the massive violation of human rights happening in Turkey right now) happen without consequence.

If only things were that simple.

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#73

Post by evan_ »

draw_down wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One wanna-be dictator to another, my guess is nothing will happen.

Mmm, I think one of them is less of a wannabe than the other. At least so far.

One is just earlier in his career

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#74

Post by djrogers »

draw_down wrote: post #34
spodek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't change the past, but as an American, my question is what will my government do to protect its citizens and how will it obtain justice for them. Will it even try? Let's hope the fourth estate holds the first three accountable.

I'm guessing nothing will happen. I have no idea if diplomatic immunity applies, but also the president and Erdogan are friendly. And, we have a lot of contempt for protestors in our country.

It seems to have little to do with the President, as the same thing happened last year at the Brookings Institute - and if you recall, a different gentleman was President at the time.

From my point of view, it seems that the State Department diplomats and bureaucrats have turned into ball-less, useless functionaries that care more about the feelings of foreign heads of state than the civil rights of US citizens.

If that weren't the case, these people would have been expelled from the US with strongly worded diplomatic requests/suggestions/demands that they be tried for their actions in a Turkish court. That's how it's supposed to work at least.

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#75

Post by valuearb »

jacquesm wrote: post #50
exabrial wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good thought, and in most states, it would be your Constitutional right to do so. However, carrying a weapon is likely to attract additional attention and there's a good chance you'd wind up dead. You're going against a foreign military trained force, and they're probably not used to seeing a normal citizen exercise their civil liberties in such a way. I think peaceful assembly is probably the best approach, and le…

In NL some Turkish minister turned up to canvas for Erdogan's push for more power and was told to get lost. She persisted with bodyguards in tow and showed up by car (after her plane had been denied landing rights). Next thing you know there was an arrest squad between her car and the Turkish embassy with instructions to shoot if necessary. They managed to de-escalate the situation and sent madam home mission not acc…

NL?

Never mind, the Netherlands, I am dumb.

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#76

Post by alasdair_ »

logicallee wrote: post #61
lifeformed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think diplomatic immunity protects the rest of them either. It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want.

>It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want. That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they are "persona non grata". (Expel them.) Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their diplomats acting criminally in other countries. But 100% of all of these actions are on the home c…

>But 100% of all of these actions are on the home country. The host country can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home country.

The host country can do anything they want. Whether or not it will cause further problems is based on the balance of power between various nations.

As an obviously ridiculous example: imagine Osama bin Laden showed up in NYC with diplomatic immunity. There is zero chance he would not be arrested, regardless of what some words say.

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#77

Post by Steuard »

logicallee wrote: post #61
lifeformed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think diplomatic immunity protects the rest of them either. It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want.

>It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want. That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they are "persona non grata". (Expel them.) Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their diplomats acting criminally in other countries. But 100% of all of these actions are on the home c…

Different categories of diplomatic/consular staff have different levels of diplomatic immunity. Here's a complicated chart that details some of that:

https://www.state.gov/m/ds/c9127.htm

Note in particular that rather a lot of categories allow the offender to be detained or arrested, and to be prosecuted if their actions were not "official acts". (And if "beat up those protesters" were formally affirmed as an official act, I suspect that would have more serious consequences than just prosecuting a few security staff members. Assuming the current administration didn't just give Erdogan a high five, anyway.)

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#78

Post by jessaustin »

sjg007 wrote: post #33

Regardless of the state department, the protestors should sue and the US can freeze assets here.

Even if suing the Turkish government is found impractical, they should definitely sue the thugs who have business interests in USA.

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#79

Post by riffic »

ehsankia wrote: post #31
werewolf359 wrote: post #23

In this video of the attack: https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/865301089867923456 a bodyguard is seen talking to someone in the back of a car. That bodyguard nods to another bodyguard, who then walks towards the protest. The attack begins the second he arrives at the line. Later, the person in the back of the car gets out. It's Erdogan. This video didn't get as much press as it should have, I suppose since you…

I was honestly surprised that NYT did such a beautiful in depth analysis of videos and didn't have this video in there. How can you do an in depth research on that incident and not have this vital video? I wonder if with modern machine learning backed algorithms, we can do a semi-decent job at reading some of the lips in that video.

> was honestly surprised that NYT did such a beautiful in depth analysis of videos and didn't have this video in there. How can you do an in depth research on that incident and not have this vital video

Licensing perhaps?

Re: Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

#80

Post by draw_down »

djrogers wrote: post #74
draw_down wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing nothing will happen. I have no idea if diplomatic immunity applies, but also the president and Erdogan are friendly. And, we have a lot of contempt for protestors in our country.

It seems to have little to do with the President, as the same thing happened last year at the Brookings Institute - and if you recall, a different gentleman was President at the time. From my point of view, it seems that the State Department diplomats and bureaucrats have turned into ball-less, useless functionaries that care more about the feelings of foreign heads of state than the civil rights of US citizens. If t…

Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with him, I just meant it doesn't hurt to have friends in high places.
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