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How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

making.duolingo.com

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Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#71
post #14

I started learning Japanese around 8 years ago, and I've never been a fan of saying it's "the most difficult language to learn." It's like learning anything else, if you enjoy learning it and are motivated enough, you'll get better. Also I'm surprised when people assume the grammar is difficult - to me, the "flexible grammatical structures" as mentioned in the article are a good thing because it gives you more leeway…

You are correct that it's like learning anything else. If you put the time in and are motivated and go about it the right way you can learn it. But it's still "the most difficult language to learn". So it's worth taking that difficulty into account. For example one can learn Spanish, Swedish and Vietnamese in around the same amount of time it would take to learn Japanese.

For me, and from a mechanical perspective, the only truly difficult part of learning Japanese was kanji. The really annoying part is that Japanese doesn't use spaces and instead relies on transitions between the three writing systems to separate words, so even if you can get a hold of a page all in hiragana, it'll look like a wall of text. I still don't recognize much kanji, so for the most part I can only understand written Japanese after glossing it in WWWJDIC [0]. Furigana is a life saver.

Spoken Japanese, though, is easy. Well, at least from a mechanical standpoint. Japanese grammar is dirt simple and minimalistic, and I found it shockingly easy to learn. However, as someone else mentioned elsewhere in the post, Japanese is very big on inferring as much as possible from context and only speaking what can't be inferred. It can honestly be a chore just to determine whether a sentence is in the first person, the second person, or the third person, because Japanese is so aggressively pro-drop that most of the time, that information has to be inferred from context. And if you intend on speaking Japanese yourself, there's a lot of subtlety when it comes to picking the appropriate register to speak in. Use the wrong verb endings or the wrong pronouns (in this case, I'm glad Japanese is so aggressively pro-drop), and you'll stick your foot in your mouth.

[0] Most people use it as a dictionary, but it also has a really awesome glossing mode: http://www.edrdg.org/cgi-bin/wwwjdic/wwwjdic?9T

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#72

I learned hiragana and katakana using the "Kanji Study" app by Chase Colburn. On the google app store. I don't know the guy, but the app is simply amazing. Repetion, through fun methods, I learned hiragana as I rode the Tokyo metro and katakana too. (It also helped that everywhere was both Kanas) Since we're all talking about how we all picked up some Japanese, I thought I'd throw it out there. I normally never donat…

Anything similar on iOS you'd mind to recommend?

I liked this bundle: https://appsto.re/us/u8wS2.i

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#73

"To show just how complex this can get, let’s take a simple English phrase – “I love you” – and dissect the many ways in which it can be said in Japanese. Spoiler alert: it’s not such a simple phrase in Japanese. One of our course contributors, Sho, estimated and found that there can actually be as many as 248,026 ways to say “I love you” in Japanese!" These kind statistics are a kind of lie in themselves. You can sa…

"I'm bonkers for that shithead" is gonna enter my daily lexicon for sure.

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#74
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also I'm surprised when people assume the grammar is difficult - to me, the "flexible grammatical structures" as mentioned in the article are a good thing because it gives you more leeway to make "mistakes." That makes speaking the language easier, but it makes understanding sentences harder in the beginning, because you get a bucket of word soup dumped on your head and have to figure out what is supposed to go whe…

Yes, the grammar of Japanese has a very simple internal logic and is easy to learn, although quite different from European languages. The problem is all the words, and there are no cognates.

Exactly. The claim that Japanese grammar is very difficult seems bizarre to me because the morphology is so regular, and I don't subscribe to the idea that flexibility and omission of words makes it harder either, more that you just have to attune yourself to it. No, the elephants in the room are (a) the vocab and (b) Kanji.

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#75
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is worth saying it's an extremely difficult language to learn because most people are not prepared for what awaits them even if they learned another language before . Anyone can pick up how to read kana in a week or so, so it's easy to assume that you're almost there, and you'll be reading manga or whatever in no time. But it's just the beginning. The language is completely different. You must commit a huge amount…

The katakana words are often English, but it still takes some time to realize that to-re is 'toilet'

I think every native English speaker in Japan has had the experience of carefully deciphering a long string of katakana in a restaurant menu, only to realize that they've just successfully translated Japanese to Italian...

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The katakana words are often English, but it still takes some time to realize that to-re is 'toilet'

I think every native English speaker in Japan has had the experience of carefully deciphering a long string of katakana in a restaurant menu, only to realize that they've just successfully translated Japanese to Italian...

ズボン is definitely one of my favorite katakana words.

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#77
post #53
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still wish Duolingo would make a course on Chinese :( Currently my favorite app is "Decipher Chinese". I read one story a day, save words I want to remember and get quizzed on them periodically.

> I still wish Duolingo would make a course on Chinese :( What kind of Chinese? Mandarin? Linguistically Chinese is not a language, but a family of languages that is united by a (mostly) common writing system. The reason that these Chinese languages are called "dialects" is mostly political. A language geek I know, who taught himself various Chinese dialects and in particular Cantonese up to a very high level told me…

Honestly, when people say they want to learn Chinese, they usually mean Mandarin Chinese. If they don't, they'll probably refer to the specific dialect they'd like to learn. Also, without any Chinese exposure, learning anything other than Mandarin is harder since their are so fewer resources.

Calling Mandarin an artificial language is bogus, it is the native dialect around the Beijing area, and that is the reason it became the official dialect of Chinese. There are many people in China who only speak Mandarin.

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#78
Brazilian Portuguese is also an implied language. I picked it up rather quickly by just living the language---in Brazil. Culture is the shared context used to decipher the unspoken. Therefore best way to learn any language, and especially japanese and portuguese, is lots and lots and lots of conversation with a variety of Native speakers in diverse moments, environments, and social situations.

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#79
post #53
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still wish Duolingo would make a course on Chinese :( Currently my favorite app is "Decipher Chinese". I read one story a day, save words I want to remember and get quizzed on them periodically.

> I still wish Duolingo would make a course on Chinese :( What kind of Chinese? Mandarin? Linguistically Chinese is not a language, but a family of languages that is united by a (mostly) common writing system. The reason that these Chinese languages are called "dialects" is mostly political. A language geek I know, who taught himself various Chinese dialects and in particular Cantonese up to a very high level told me…

> What kind of Chinese? Mandarin?

The official Chinese language yes.

Your story is really not representative of China, Mandarin is nothing like Esperanto. It's a real dialect and it became the official language of China a long time ago. People speak Mandarin everywhere now (except maybe HK).

Re: How we invented new ways to teach Japanese

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was just coming here to ask the very same thing!

Its only available on ios at the moment https://incubator.duolingo.com/courses/ja/en/status hideki Japanese beta course available on iOS! 15 hours ago We are thrilled to announce that our Japanese course is now available on iOS. It's coming to Android in a few weeks, and web will be next! Find more details at https://www.duolingo.com/comment/22676285 http://making.duolingo.com/how-we-invented-a-new-way-to-teac... htt…

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