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Apple’s China Problem

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Re: Apple’s China Problem

#71

Post by MBCook »

skdotdan wrote: post #53

The problem with many tech analysts is that they are Apple fanboys without even knowing that they are. Stating that Microsoft Surface and Samsung S8 are not competitors of Apple just because their products don't run Mac OS/iOS is pure fanaticism at the very least. Nevertheless, I find that the main point of the article is right. But Apple's China problem is also a very important problem for Google (actually, it's wor…

> [...] just because their products don't run Mac OS/iOS is pure fanaticism at the very least.

Is it? I like iOS and have no desire to switch, so I would never consider an S8 or a Google Pixel for my next phone. It really does matter. Even if Android is just as good there is friction in switching and people often like to stay with what is comfortable until some issue becomes too much to bare.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#72

Post by MBCook »

mikhailt wrote: post #49

This seems to confuse some people, the author is not saying Apple have a monopoly on smartphones. What the author is talking about is the locked-in ecosystem that Apple owns, iOS and macOS (watchOS/tvOS). > Moreover, the advantages go beyond margins: the best way to understand both Apple’s profits and many of its choices is to understand that the company has a monopoly on not just MacOS but even more importantly iOS.…

Great summary.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#73

Post by gnrlist »

MBCook wrote: post #70
gnrlist wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from it's verbosity, the only nit I have with the article is that it muddles it's own point by talking about iOS as a monopoly.

I don't think so. Ben's point (as I took it) was that Apple has a monopoly on iOS (because only their devices have it) and that gives them a very strong hold on users, there is too much friction in switching to Android. But in China if people don't really care about iOS that monopoly is worthless and their normal strategy for retaining users doesn't work, which means they're competing on a completely different basis…

Good point, I didn't get the nuance from my first pass reading it.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#74

Post by zeveb »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #64
skdotdan wrote: post #53

The problem with many tech analysts is that they are Apple fanboys without even knowing that they are. Stating that Microsoft Surface and Samsung S8 are not competitors of Apple just because their products don't run Mac OS/iOS is pure fanaticism at the very least. Nevertheless, I find that the main point of the article is right. But Apple's China problem is also a very important problem for Google (actually, it's wor…

They're not competitors in the segment of the market providing macOS , because they don't run it. Some people will be willing to look past it, but it's still a huge advantage for Apple. When I'm choosing my next laptop, though the Surface and the Dell XPS might seem nice, neither of them run macOS, and that's probably a dealbreaker for me unless Apple's laptops get really far away from my needs.

> neither of them run macOS, and that's probably a dealbreaker for me

I strongly suggest that you give Linux a shot. Depending on the distro, it can be very nice, and it means that you get to keep both your money and your freedom, which I really appreciate.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#75

Post by valuearb »

skdotdan wrote: post #53

The problem with many tech analysts is that they are Apple fanboys without even knowing that they are. Stating that Microsoft Surface and Samsung S8 are not competitors of Apple just because their products don't run Mac OS/iOS is pure fanaticism at the very least. Nevertheless, I find that the main point of the article is right. But Apple's China problem is also a very important problem for Google (actually, it's wor…

He didn't say that MSFT and Samsung weren't competitors of Apple. He said MacOS and iOS are monopolies. Those are two different things.

You can switch from a monopoly over a specific service/product to a similar but not identical one. MacOS has applications and features that Windows doesn't. It historically enabled features (sealed batteries) that Windows didn't, that provided better performance.

And MacOS can run linux and windows. For people who value those things, MacOS is a complete monopoly.

iOS is even more differentiated from Android. Android won't support all the music/movies/shows I've bought from iTunes, does't work with iCloud, etc. It doesn't airplay to my other Apple devices.

These "monopolies" are why Apple is successful. When they switched to Intel they didn't lower costs by adopting commoditized PC hardware designs and outsource OS development to MSFT by licensing windows. They used Intel to provide more powerful and more flexible Macs, and continued to differentiate themselves by adding value with aluminum bodies, retina screens, mag-safe adapters, thunderbolt, etc, etc, etc.

I think Apple understands much better than most of us geeks that their customers spend a lot of time with their devices and on their Macs. If I pay $1000 more for an "equivalent" Mac than Windows PC, it costs me about 50 cents more per work hour. Which means my payback needs less than a 1% increase in productive. And it's trivial to get far more than that because despite having similar processors/ram/storage, they are in no way equivalent in build quality, flexibility, and usability.

Where Apple's model fails is for the people who don't make much per hour, so building your own, or getting the cheapest, makes sense.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#76

Post by zeveb »

imron wrote: post #30
staticelf wrote: post #2

> None of that lock-in exists in China: Apple may be a de facto monopolist for most of the world, but in China the company is simply another smartphone vendor, and being simply another smartphone vendor is a hazardous place to be. Don't get that part. I live in Europe and sure a lot of people has an iPhone but I believe strongly that more people have an Android. Doesn't Android have like 80% or more of the world mark…

> but I believe strongly that more people have an Android. If you go by people, Android has more market share. If you go by profit, iOS has more market share. https://www.macrumors.com/2017/03/07/apple-global-smartphone... > None of that lock-in exists in China This is true. If all your friends and family use iMessage and PhotoStream, then once you start using that too it creates lock-in specifically tied to software…

> As an example, all my family use iPhones. We use PhotoStream to share pictures of family events and children and the like. If I were to switch to Android then I would lose all of that interaction, and so it's a big driver in keeping me (and other family members) on iOS.

There's always Flickr, Facebook &c. Many folks in my family use iCloud or PhotoStream or whatever it's called, and it does mean that I'm cut out of seeing those updates (because Apple are apparently unable to design a cross-platform webpage displaying pictures and text, in 2017), but I just don't care: I'd rather live without the restrictions of iOS and have the (relative) freedom and flexibility of an Android device.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#77

Post by valuearb »

zeveb wrote: post #74
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not competitors in the segment of the market providing macOS , because they don't run it. Some people will be willing to look past it, but it's still a huge advantage for Apple. When I'm choosing my next laptop, though the Surface and the Dell XPS might seem nice, neither of them run macOS, and that's probably a dealbreaker for me unless Apple's laptops get really far away from my needs.

> neither of them run macOS, and that's probably a dealbreaker for me I strongly suggest that you give Linux a shot. Depending on the distro, it can be very nice, and it means that you get to keep both your money and your freedom, which I really appreciate.

Applications matter.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#78

Post by valuearb »

ianai wrote: post #58
Kurtz79 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WeChat is an application, not an Operating System. The point it is that is so widely used in China that the OS it runs on is basically indifferent to the user, since he will spend most of his time in the app itself, which replaces/supplement/embeds many services that the OS (or other third party apps) usually provides.

How does that get through Apple's restrictions?

What restrictions are you talking about? Apple has no prohibitions against making the vast majority of applications.

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#79

Post by valuearb »

yabatopia wrote: post #16

I don't know if most people really consider the OS to be that important anymore, as the author strongly believes. The Windows Surface Laptop is no threat to Apple because it doesn't run macOS. Samsung's smartphones are no threat to Apple because the phones don't run iOS. Then he continues with the WeChat factor to explain the shrinking market share of Apple in China. If you consider China the trendsetter in tech, tha…

I think you've put your finger on the strongest implication from his piece. Platform has always mattered. What does Apple do if software application out of their control becomes the only platform that matters?

Re: Apple’s China Problem

#80

Post by zeveb »

ForrestN wrote: post #35
anjc wrote: post #32

> hardware differentiated by software such that said hardware can be sold with a margin much greater than nominal competitors running a commodity operating system. Apple's hardware is not differentiated by software. Their creaking software is an ancillary requirement to use their excellent hardware. If their software was their differentiator then Hackintosh's would be more widely used. Secondly, OSX is a commodity op…

While you may find it creaking, myself and many other people find the experience of using Apple software far better than any competing systems. I wouldn't work somewhere that asked me to use Windows. For me, and maybe I'm overly aesthetically sensitive, it would make my day to day life much worse. This is just to say that the authority with which you dismiss Apple's software as a point of differentiation is probably…

> While you may find it creaking, myself and many other people find the experience of using Apple software far better than any competing systems. I wouldn't work somewhere that asked me to use Windows. For me, and maybe I'm overly aesthetically sensitive, it would make my day to day life much worse.

I agree: Windows is just embarrassingly bad. Fortunately, there is another …

I've been using desktop Linux for almost twenty years, and it is in my experience superior to the Mac. It gets out of my way and lets me get my work done. It has multiple tiling window managers. It is the native environment for the best tools. It is truly free, both in terms of liberty and price. It runs on commodity hardware. It's fast. And, IMHO, it can be pretty too.

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