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Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

economist.com

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Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#71

Post by samirillian »

Afforess wrote: post #43
samirillian wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't think that was the author's intention. Uneducated would have sufficed.

I don't think undereducation is correct here. You could spend 50 years re-experiencing K-12 education in America and that will not earn you skills that are simply not taught there.

Yeah, but then the premise is just a tautology: education that doesn't teach you what we consider important is a bad education. I mean, it's a lot of energy to spend thinking about a such a poorly-conceived essay. Or is it badly conceived?

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#72

Post by TheOsiris »

jldugger wrote: post #55
krath94 wrote: post #19

"Although there is no reason in theory why men could not become nurses or care-home assistants, few do." This is true, but why is it that the shortage of women in technology fields is attributed to them not being accepted or even forced out? Maybe this isn't the general attitude, but I have certainly heard people say that woman aren't in tech as much because they feel unwelcome, whereas when talking about men in thos…

"they don't want to" can be expanded into a number of causal cultural factors: - teachers, parents, advisors all too often say tech is not for women - daughters are rarely given personal computers at the same as sons - video games, an important gateway into programming, are primarily marketed at boys - we have very few living role models of expert women programmers Many of these same arguments apply to men and nursin…

where did you get these facts from exactly? because they're all made up.

> teachers, parents, advisors all too often say tech is not for women.

let us know who does this so we can shame them. btw, some parents might be doing this but they're terrible parents. but no teacher or advisor would ever do this. please don't sully these hardworking people.

> daughters are rarely given a computer at the same as sons

rarely? I would dispute that.

...

> nursing is yet another underpaid pink collar job

maybe they're underpaid (I think devs are underpaid too) but it is a very good paying job that doesn't need a 4-year degree and $100k in student loans. and to top it all off they're unionized, have benefits that would make you drool, and many can retire at a young age with full benefits. it's a well sought after job and a way for many people to move up economically.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#73

Post by devonkim »

thrownblown wrote: post #9
csours wrote: post #2

Poorly educated or badly educated? Badly educated would indicate that the education is based on incorrect facts or processes. Poorly educated would indicate that there may not be enough education, etc.

Paying attention is a skill that needs to be taught in school. It's hardly the fault of the student if the schools don't engage and challenge them. The American education system fed me lie after lie after lie. All public schools teach lies, some even don't even pretend and teach creationism.

Paying attention is something that some students frequently have doing because their home life is so terrible and "teaching it" is already a problem. Students in many underserved communities come to school having trouble sleeping or eating, and this destroys performance in school. Most teachers overwhelmed with behavioral problems while trying to teach completely nonsensical curriculums established by non-educators simply punish these students with in school suspension or detention which further ostracizes these students that are oftentimes already picked on by peers.

Blaming schools entirely for root causes sometimes stemming from students coming from bad home lives is nonsensical just as much as it is to remove blame from students for their individual performance. Our most often cited statistics simply don't do a good job of decoupling social factors of aggregate academic achievement from the variables schools themselves do control.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#75

Post by thrownblown »

SaintGhurka wrote: post #62
thrownblown wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attended a great public high school staffed by a faculty that, for the most part, actually cared about the people they raised into their community. Some of them had good intentions with their lies (Creationists), but they're still lies. Regardless, it was overflowing with lies. Especially history.

Would you mind identifying where? And when you went to school where they were teaching creationism? I hate to challenge you on that, but really, where is this actually done in the US?

Huntland TN.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#76

Post by circlefavshape »

douche wrote: post #50
coldtea wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, god forbid people say anything that goes against the assumptions of du jour, which should be permanently set in stone...

I mean, we have this conversation thread like every third day. I'm not sure that there's anything left to be said that hasn't been beaten into the ground, over, and over, and over. Nobody is convincing anybody, we'll just yell at each other for a while. Maybe that makes some people happy.

I've seen lots of yelling, but no actual conversation.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#77

Post by nwatson »

panglott wrote: post #46

It's a little unclear in the article why unemployment should lead to this family structure of single mothers having kids with three different fathers (US family law strongly favors motherly custodyy), until this: "For many men in Tallulah, the greatest obstacle to finding a job is that they have already fallen foul of the law. ...And here the falling fortunes of working-class men do further damage. In 1960, among nev…

Something Obama and the Koch brothers can agree on: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/koch-industries-brothe...

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#78

Post by reitanqild »

douche wrote: post #50
coldtea wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, god forbid people say anything that goes against the assumptions of du jour, which should be permanently set in stone...

I mean, we have this conversation thread like every third day. I'm not sure that there's anything left to be said that hasn't been beaten into the ground, over, and over, and over. Nobody is convincing anybody, we'll just yell at each other for a while. Maybe that makes some people happy.

I mean, we have this conversation thread like every third day.

Which means many here find it interesting.

I'm not sure that there's anything left to be said that hasn't been beaten into the ground, over, and over, and over.

Not true IMO. The fact that you still don't see any nuance here should tell us that this is still an important discussion.

Many of us men has experienced being systematically and officially discriminated against during school.

Note: I am not saying girls aren't discriminated against. I actually think they have it worse (I have seen some of it and it was ugly). I'm just saying this discussion really lacks nuance.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#79

Post by cJ0th »

> In “The End of Men”, a good book with a somewhat excessive title, Hanna Rosin notes that of the 30 occupations expected to grow fastest in America in the coming years, women dominate 20, including nursing, accounting, child care and food preparation.

What would happen if accounting falls prey to automation in the coming years? Would many former female accountants be willing to become nurses or to prepare food for a living?

Well, we don't know. I just find it toxic to look at this topic at the men vs women level even though many of the men described in the article probably are idiots. Who gets labeled what highly depends on circumstances a single actor can not really influence.

These problems are structural and they only exist because society as a whole fails to make sure that every human being finds a productive place in it. Take the guy mentioned in the article who sold small amounts of Marijuana, for instance. In the state he's living, it's illegal and thus he gets labeled a criminal. In another state he could work at a legal Marijuana shop just like others work in food preparation. In one state selling Marijuana makes you a dumb criminal, in a different state you get congratulated for your ability to adapt because you've picked a fast growing occupation.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#80

Post by krath94 »

panglott wrote: post #53
krath94 wrote: post #19

"Although there is no reason in theory why men could not become nurses or care-home assistants, few do." This is true, but why is it that the shortage of women in technology fields is attributed to them not being accepted or even forced out? Maybe this isn't the general attitude, but I have certainly heard people say that woman aren't in tech as much because they feel unwelcome, whereas when talking about men in thos…

It's possible that men feel unwelcome in female-dominated areas for the same reason women may in male-dominated areas: it can be intimidating to enter a group of people of the opposite sex, with their own norms and microaggressions and who feel entitled and encouraged to be there, when you have received numerous social signals that's weird for you to be there or even want to be there. Unless those people and institut…

"microaggressions"

You mean someone saying something completely normal with no ill intention and someone else, for whatever reason, getting offended?

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