Live data from Hacker News

Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

wsj.com

71–80 of 182 posts

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#71
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. Those incidents look like brinkmanship, not outright lying and making up evidence. If you think you can get the money and you, in fact, get the money, that may be a gamble, but it doesn't sound on the same order as inventing "evidence" whole cloth.

Yeah, because things worked out and they were ultimately able to deliver before everything imploded. It can be a fine line. Theranos didn't know where that line was.

It is a fine line. From practical experience: there is a class of inventors who have genuinely convinced themselves that their broken tech will work if only they get the bugs worked out, and this is always just over the horizon. They probably see themselves as doing you a favor by lying to you because you will reap the benefits after all, once the pay-day arrives.

I've seen lots of misery because of this, both with the inventors themselves, their families and employees. In one case a suicide.

It's very sad and one of the downsides of being in the business I'm in because I have come to recognize the signs of this particular ailment fairly quickly and it is a huge balancing act in both convincing my client not to invest while at the same time not pulling the rug out from under a quite possibly already unstable person.

Fraud can be intentional, or it can be the consequence of someone genuinely believing their own misguided version of reality, usually powered by some form of 'wouldn't it be great if' and associated lines of thinking.

Even so, Theranos - to me at least - seems to have crossed over into outright fraud from very early on in their lifetime. There were significant questions about the tech early on and without a good answer to those the project should have never moved as far as it did without some serious caveats about what they believed to be possible and total transparency about what had actually been achieved.

For a nice example of how gullible people are check out the Ilium thread on the homepage right now, it's a great example of how wishful thinking can cause investors to part with their money:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14167870

uBeam is another, so far they produce roughly two ecstatic press releases per year but there is no product in sight.

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a frequent fine line in tech. To get a contract, Bob Noyce claimed for a buyer that Fairchild could produce & deliver a new type of transistor, in a large quantity, without having any production capability for it yet, as it had never been built. Excite bid on getting a place on Netscape's browser, before having the money to actually pay for it (they figured they'd get it afterward): http://bnoopy.typepad.com/bno…

I went to Stanford (hence the screen name) ... Stanford students are generally sheep that know one thing for certain: That they are smart enough to get into Stanford and that they now have pretty much zero excuse to not be successful. They assume that other things (vision, relentless lifelong obsession) are means to ends. It is a fertile breeding ground for what Trungpa Rinpoche most accurately describes a "Spiritual…

I don't really know why this has to link back to Stanford.

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#73

So will Holmes go to prison? A green card holder in Texas was just​ sentenced to eight years in prison for voting in a US election. Surely Holmes will go away much longer right?

> A green card holder in Texas was just​ sentenced to eight years in prison for voting in a US election. Surely Holmes will go away much longer right?

That certainly sounds like a miscarriage of justice, but not really a sensible point of comparison. It's an entirely different domain of law. And even if it were apples to apples, a random green card holder vs an American tech billionaire will get vastly different treatments and outcomes in the American justice system (which is bad, but simply he reality).

> So will Holmes go to prison?

I would bet heavily against it. Holmes maintained panoptic control over all of Theranos's operations (until she was barred from operating labs, presumably), so it seems very unlikely that definitive evidence of fraud will surface from within.

Also, I imagine that the US regulatory bodies that started actions against Theranos in the past two years are or will soon be... significantly less disposed to vigorously pursuing criminal charges, especially of the kind that would assign personal culpability to corporate management.

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#74
This all sounds preliminary to me. Based on the headline and one paragraph I was able to read (not pay-walled), this doesn't necessarily indicate malicious intent or foul play. Big companies are complicated, and they do things in weird ways sometimes for reasons that aren't immediately obvious.

It's amazing how quickly the winds of the internet shift to absolutely condemn a person/company before all (or any) of the facts are in. The world is a better place when we all extend a benefit of doubt to our fellow humans and there creations.

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to fool yourself into believing that the fraud is just a temporary necessity while you work out the final kinks in your product.

It's a frequent fine line in tech. To get a contract, Bob Noyce claimed for a buyer that Fairchild could produce & deliver a new type of transistor, in a large quantity, without having any production capability for it yet, as it had never been built. Excite bid on getting a place on Netscape's browser, before having the money to actually pay for it (they figured they'd get it afterward): http://bnoopy.typepad.com/bno…

Microsoft didn't lie about having DOS - that's a myth. They originally sent them to Digital Research and when they failed to work with them said they knew where they could get an OS and they'd take care of it. IBM relied on them as a bit of a liason to the microcomputer industry - which they didn't have a good understanding of.

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#77
post #10

Wow. Okay, this takes it from "Shit happens and people can be totally deluded" to actual, genuine fraud. Edit: Also, how can people be that stupid? You have to know the truth will eventually come out? Right? Or, no? I don't get it.

> You have to know the truth will eventually come out? Right? Or, no?

You have to know, but psychopaths usually don't.

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#79

This explains to some extent why investors might have given the company that valuation of 9 billion. If the company faked demos and portrayed results obtained on non Theranos tech as Theranos tech results, most investors can't be blamed for believing the tech worked and it was only a matter of time before all tests could be performed by the tech. What is baffling to me is unless the data was doctored why didn't any o…

One could have asked the same of the VW engineers involved in Dieselgate or the GM engineers who worked on the ignition switch and simply changed the part without changing the part number.

There are those who want to be part of the team and there are those who can really play on that feeling. Then there are those who just want that buck.

Re: Theranos Secretly Bought Outside Lab Gear, Ran Fake Tests: Court Filings

#80

I told you her schtick was too smooth. 'I'm too driven to care about anything but my work' is always a red flag.

The whole 'coming out of nowhere' thing is another red flag. This idea that an undergraduate built revolutionary medical tech in their dorm room no less? Who invests in that? With no data, no trials, no feasibility study?

Holmes hasn't actually claimed to have come up with any new discoveries or revolutionary technology while an undergraduate, I think. She had the idea for the company and decided to drop out. Of course, magazines like Inc. had no issues playing up her genius with Silicon Valley hyperbole.

Several people -- her professor? I forget -- warned her the blood test wouldn't work, even before she dropped out.

Post reply on HN