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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#71

Post by cc439 »

R_haterade wrote: post #18
itchyjunk wrote: post #6

"farmers could damage the machines, like bypassing pollution emissions controls to get more horsepower." Isn't this the problem with warranties? People could try to mod it, end up damaging it and try to get it replaced with warranties. I also don't fully understand this software. Is it just completely vendor locked? That sounds really unreasonable. It should allow for at least basic debugging and trouble shooting. Is…

Can confirm it's usually proprietary and locked. An old roommate is employed by an implement manufacturer--his sole job is traveling the western united states, making housecalls to upload newer versions of control software to equipment. They absolutely DO NOT trust the owners to do it themselves. This has pretty frightening implications for the state of consumer goods, if industrial goods are already going this direc…

"This has pretty frightening implications for the state of consumer goods, if industrial goods are already going this direction."

This scenario has played out thousands of times in the manufacturing/industrial sector over the past 30 years. The end result is that the vendor trying to lock their customers in to a service contract loses out to whoever makes a remotely comparable product that isn't locked in within a decade. The sales generated by virtue of being the "non-bullshit" vendor far outweigh the profits associated by following the market leader into the world of walled gardens.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#72

Post by Rumudiez »

TylerE wrote: post #30
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

That will just lead to the Chinesium-ization of all things. No real innovation will occur...just churning out commodity designs in the Far East.

And that's different than what we're doing in the US now?

Every problem's already been solved; you just don't have access to its solution. Wouldn't being able to work off of others' successes make you more productive? Doesn't that apply to everyone?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#73

Post by cc439 »

andrewchambers wrote: post #2

I don't like the idea that we have to pass laws to force companies to make a better product. Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?

"Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?"

They are, that's why companies like Kubota are expanding their US-based manufacturing capacity like crazy. Capital equipment like a Harvester or practically anything above credit card expense level industrial equipment is purchased on a "make or break" level of decision making. Brand inertia can only carry a company like John Deere so long before the competition eats their lunch. Remember, this is a recent (past ~5 years) development in a market where equipment is expected to last ~10 years or longer. The next time these farmers decide to buy a piece of capital equipment, I guarantee they buy the unrestricted option.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#75

Post by pdkl95 »

elgenie wrote: post #32
notliketherest wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. By your logic your statement could just have easily as been "to start a car company" or "to start a rocket company" or "to start a computer company". These are all examples of industries whose existing players were supplanted by a better idea with smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs.

The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. Then if the firms behind those products are well-run, they will use the dominant market position their products have granted them to try to raise barriers to entry and smother upstart competitors in their crib. "Car company" and "rocket company" are interesting examples, since the "smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs" in those area…

> The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out.

That is patently incorrect. There are many examples of market failures that produce incorrect, poor quality, or even predatory results. A recent example is the total disregard for security in many (most?) "IoT" products, and the market for lemons[1] is the canonical example of a market that specifically selects for bad results ("lemons"). Note that the latter example of markets not producing "better products" was worth a Nobel Prize.

In a truly free market, the product that is most efficient for the market wins. This is often (but not always) the most profitable product. Sometimes it may also be the "best" product, depending on your point of view, because profit (or price) is not the only metric that is used in determining which product is "best".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#76

Post by randomdata »

cmurf wrote: post #68
randomdata wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar Caterpillar? In agriculture? Do you mean Challenger (AGCO) or CLAAS, both of whom have used Caterpillar branding at points in the past? Although neither of them have recently. Curiously, you're the second person to have mentioned Caterpillar being involved in agriculture in this discussion. Which surprises me. They are not a player at all, outside of some overlap us…

Yes they explicitly target that market. http://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry.html Agriculture is a broad market, not limited to plows and combines which are more specific and that's where JD is at. Like I said, not much overlap.

Yes, like I said, they sell their segment of industrial equipment that is also useful in agriculture to people involved in agriculture. Your link echoes that. It's also small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. Why are you putting them ahead of big players in agriculture like CNH and ACGO? In fact, Massey Ferguson (ACGO) is considered to have the largest tractor band in the world.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#77

Post by cc439 »

froindt wrote: post #40
thearn4 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a fair amount of competition in this space. Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually.

> Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually. Around Iowa I see these brands as well, but I don't see Kubota and New Holland as being as massive and innovative as Deere and Cat are/can be. John Deere has been notorious in the legal system in its pursuit of these locks on software. They have very good autonomy software which gets better every season, and distinguishes them fr…

Kubota and New Holland dominate the southeast in my experience. I've even seen several John Deere dealers convert over to other lines recently.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#78

Post by problems »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #29
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

I wonder how much more the bunghole of the RIAA/MPAA would tighten up with DRM if it wasn't even illegal to copy stuff they publish with reckless regard. You'd basically have to outlaw DRM too, or everyone would just make their stuff unusable/uncopyable.

Hah, are you kidding? Even the most advanced VM based protections are routinely bypassed by crackers. Things which have an analog hole vulnerability are just too easy.

The only way something like that would happen is a big shift in hardware towards tamper resistant stuff with hardware crypto. And if all the RE work on that tamper resistant hardware could be done in public things would get... very fun.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#79

Post by cookiecaper »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #43
Pyxl101 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everything open source" would take away the incentive for people to create essentially all media professionally: software, music, TVs/movies, podcasts, journalism, and more. Many industries would be destroyed if they didn't have the right to sell their creations (if anyone could copy them and give them away). I personally enjoy the media created by many organizations such as NPR, which made the article we're reading…

Going back to "...limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" would do wonders to making the situation w/ copyright better.

Yes, reining copyright terms in, putting in strong protections for individuals and hobbyists so that copyright is irrelevant to anyone with less than $1M in revenue, and liberalizing fair use (which unfortunately probably also means seriously overhauling our judicial processes to be not horrendously slow and expensive) would make copyright far more tolerable.

IMO the ideal would be something like 10 year copyright terms, with restrictions like requiring all software subject to copyright protection to submit its source.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#80

Post by mikekchar »

TylerE wrote: post #30
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

That will just lead to the Chinesium-ization of all things. No real innovation will occur...just churning out commodity designs in the Far East.

I always find comments like these amusing because it's exactly what people said of the Japanese in the 60's and 70's. And in exactly the same way, the Chinese (and other up and coming players) are innovating: just not in the areas that some people are looking. It starts with undercutting the market with low labour rates, but as times move on and the populace has higher expectations in terms of living conditions, the companies have to innovate on production. The Japanese transformed automobile production -- and not with low wages and crappy knock off goods. They absolutely ate everybody's lunch on efficient, quality construction. They built better cars and the rest of the world spent 10 years playing catch up.

It's this complacency, and in many cases a lack of respect, that allows this to happen. Make no mistake, they are doing great things in China right now and if western companies don't react quickly enough, their lunch will be eaten again.

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