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Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

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Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#71

Post by throwaway729 »

evilsnoopi3 wrote: post #65
throwaway729 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. Lesson #1: Don't steal. > I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company. Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Assuming their acc…

> Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Actually, you shouldn't say anything and get a lawyer. Then listen to them. Pleading the fifth is expressly not an admission of guilt however it is portrayed in the media - often times it is necessary even for innocent parties to invoke. I am not a lawyer and this shouldn't be construed as legal advice.

> Actually, you shouldn't say anything and get a lawyer

Which is exactly what Levandowski did. And then, under advice from his lawyer, he plead the fifth.

> Pleading the fifth is expressly not an admission of guilt

In criminal cases.

In civil cases, you can still plead the fifth without facing contempt. But the jury is free to draw its own conclusions. As is the judge. If you don't believe me, see the transcription of Alsup's tounge lashing.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#72

Post by throwaway729 »

dllthomas wrote: post #63
throwaway729 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. Lesson #1: Don't steal. > I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company. Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Assuming their acc…

Your Lesson #2 is wrong. If someone accuses you of theft listen to your lawyer , whether you are innocent or guilty.

And if your lawyer tells you to plead the fifth and clam up, don't be surprised when your business receives an injunction.

I'm not a lawyer, but Alsup is, and he states as much in an abundantly clear tongue lashing of Uber's lawyers:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3-...

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Of course you should talk to lawyers first, just as Levandowski did.

But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#73

Post by cosmie »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #64
ekidd wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and search their own room for drugs. I have expressed this attitude to corporate lawyers before, and asked them how the system deals with bad actors. Basically, if a judge catches you lying during discovery, they can issue a default judgement against you and impose very serious additional damages. For example: http://newenglandinhouse.com/2015/0…

If finding and reporting the documents already threatens bankrupt the defendant, imposing additional sanctions for lying about finding the documents isn't much of a threat.

Sanctions against a company, sure. But sanctions against a lawyer, up to and including the threat of disbarment, threatens a person's entire career and livelihood. Not that you can't find a lawyer willing to stomach the risk of walking close to that line and use their career as table stakes, but you'll pay them accordingly.

A federal judge calling out your defendant's shenanigans so strongly raises that personal risk of sanctions to the lawyer of continuing to defend that client. And the defendant will keep having lawyers bail out until they either get their act together or the case ends (probably not in their favor, since they can't even keep a lawyer around for long).

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#74

Post by dragonwriter »

throwaway729 wrote: post #71
evilsnoopi3 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Actually, you shouldn't say anything and get a lawyer. Then listen to them. Pleading the fifth is expressly not an admission of guilt however it is portrayed in the media - often times it is necessary even for innocent parties to invoke. I am not a lawyer and this shouldn't be construed as legal advice.

> Actually, you shouldn't say anything and get a lawyer Which is exactly what Levandowski did. And then, under advice from his lawyer, he plead the fifth. > Pleading the fifth is expressly not an admission of guilt In criminal cases. In civil cases, you can still plead the fifth without facing contempt. But the jury is free to draw its own conclusions. As is the judge. If you don't believe me, see the transcription o…

> In civil cases, the jury is free to draw its own conclusions

Actually, in the US, whether or not the jury is free to draw negative inferences from invoking the fifth varies by which jurisdictions law controls (the feds have one set of rules, states each have their own, and their are rules for when state and federal issues are in play in the same case.)

And, in any case, there is a difference from a negative inferences drawn from your failure as a result of your agent's invocation of the Fifth (e.g., Uber based on Levandowski's actions) and a negative inference against you for your invocation of the Fifth.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#75

Post by throwaway729 »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #61
throwaway729 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. Lesson #1: Don't steal. > I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company. Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Assuming their acc…

> Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth What is the clear benefit to denying rather than pleading the fifth? I know from Psychology that telling a jury to disregard information makes it seem more valuable and true, but that's more speculative than what you seem to have seen.

> What is the clear benefit to denying rather than pleading the fifth?

Avoiding an injunction against your business.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#76

Post by dragonwriter »

throwaway729 wrote: post #72
dllthomas wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your Lesson #2 is wrong. If someone accuses you of theft listen to your lawyer , whether you are innocent or guilty.

And if your lawyer tells you to plead the fifth and clam up, don't be surprised when your business receives an injunction. I'm not a lawyer, but Alsup is, and he states as much in an abundantly clear tongue lashing of Uber's lawyers: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3-... Sorry, but I don't buy it. Of course you should talk to lawyers first, just as Levandowski did. But at some point, if you'…

> But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself.

In a perfect world, being actually innocent would mean zero risk of conviction of a crime with a vigorous and dedicated defense, no matter what the prosecution did.

We don't live in a perfect world, and it is, in fact, quite possible for a situation to exist where you are actually innocent and on-balance have better expected results by invoking the Fifth.

Even accepting potential negative consequences that may have outside of the criminal realm.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#77

Post by WalterSear »

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #57
ekidd wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and search their own room for drugs. I have expressed this attitude to corporate lawyers before, and asked them how the system deals with bad actors. Basically, if a judge catches you lying during discovery, they can issue a default judgement against you and impose very serious additional damages. For example: http://newenglandinhouse.com/2015/0…

It's pretty hard to catch if your only search interface is through the liar.

Moreover, I've seen 'mistakes' and intentionally 'last minute' delivery of documents myself at trials, along with what essentially amounts to blatant filibustering. It was considered 'part of the game'. No one was punished.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#78

Post by bonzini »

themgt wrote: post #60
ABCLAW wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judge Alsup's comments on pages 14 and 15 of the transcript mirror the statement you're attempting to discredit. Perhaps it is a bit more concerning when the argument is made by the trier-of-fact himself.

Yeah, reading through pages 14 -> 20 Uber sounds like they're in some shit. Essentially Levandowski wants to keep his criminal 5th amendment protections at the same time Uber is keeping him as head of the division and the judge thinks it already looks likely he stole 14,000 documents. Uber's almost trying to launder his criminal protections into their civil case while he's still running the department they accused hi…

> launder his criminal protections into their civil case

Which they just can't do right? Fifth amendment can be used against you in civil cases.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#79

Post by throwaway729 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #74
throwaway729 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually, you shouldn't say anything and get a lawyer Which is exactly what Levandowski did. And then, under advice from his lawyer, he plead the fifth. > Pleading the fifth is expressly not an admission of guilt In criminal cases. In civil cases, you can still plead the fifth without facing contempt. But the jury is free to draw its own conclusions. As is the judge. If you don't believe me, see the transcription o…

> In civil cases, the jury is free to draw its own conclusions Actually, in the US, whether or not the jury is free to draw negative inferences from invoking the fifth varies by which jurisdictions law controls (the feds have one set of rules, states each have their own, and their are rules for when state and federal issues are in play in the same case.) And, in any case, there is a difference from a negative inferen…

Thanks for the clarification. I.e., the fifth itself doesn't protect you from negative inference in civil cases, but some jurisdictions provide that protection?

In any case, I stand by my lesson: avoid actions that lead to situations where these distinctions matter.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#80

Post by muro »

CalChris wrote: post #12
jerf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a completely non-substantiative quote from an attorney for one side that contains the implicit assumption that Uber really does have the documents and is actively committing crimes in discovery to prevent the discovery from working. Not only is it not an unbiased source, it's basically a source being paid to be biased. Which is fine; I am generally down with the philosophy of adversarial justice. But you s…

> No, that's a completely non-substantiative quote from an attorney for one side that contains the implicit assumption that Uber really does have the documents Implicit assumption? The first paragraph of the TechCrunch article says: Uber admitted today that it had found one of the documents Waymo alleges was stolen by a former employee — who left its self-driving car effort to join Uber’s — on the employee’s personal…

What does "personal computer" mean? PC provided by the employer to he individual, or their private, not related to work, computer?
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