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The Value of Ideas

dilbert.com

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Re: The Value of Ideas

#71

Post by gsk »

michael_nielsen wrote: post #42

What a curious post. Pure mathematics is nothing but ideas - often very deep ones that very few people are capable of originating. If you take Adams literally, then mathematics is worthless. Is the idea of the Ricci flow, which Perelman used to prove the Poincare conjecture, really useless? The problem Adams is addressing, so far as I can see, is that many people think trivial, easy-to-have ideas are somehow valuable…

Interesting. An idea must still have some sort of execution, no? In mathematics, I would have thought that proof is the execution of a purely mathematical idea. Obviously, I do agree with you that some ideas are precious (to take a non-mathematical example, the idea of Freedom).

Adams seems to have only had utilitarian ideas in mind. His post didn't strike me as curious, however. I did not expect him to discuss pure mathematics.

Re: The Value of Ideas

#72

Post by Vivtek »

michael_nielsen wrote: post #42

What a curious post. Pure mathematics is nothing but ideas - often very deep ones that very few people are capable of originating. If you take Adams literally, then mathematics is worthless. Is the idea of the Ricci flow, which Perelman used to prove the Poincare conjecture, really useless? The problem Adams is addressing, so far as I can see, is that many people think trivial, easy-to-have ideas are somehow valuable…

I'd say yeah - without the proof of the Poincaré conjecture (execution), the idea of the Ricci flow is an amusing conceit.

And worthless beyond that.

Re: The Value of Ideas

#73

Post by jacobolus »

michael_nielsen wrote: post #42

What a curious post. Pure mathematics is nothing but ideas - often very deep ones that very few people are capable of originating. If you take Adams literally, then mathematics is worthless. Is the idea of the Ricci flow, which Perelman used to prove the Poincare conjecture, really useless? The problem Adams is addressing, so far as I can see, is that many people think trivial, easy-to-have ideas are somehow valuable…

That’s an absurd comparison. Generating mathematical conjectures and then proving them takes decades of preparation and careful study and analysis of a difficult problem. Generating a movie plot idea at the level Adams is talking about takes, with no preparation, a few minutes and a dinner napkin.

The equivalent kind of “idea” in mathematics might be “I’m going to understand and model heat dispersion in a block of metal”, with the “execution” being developing the underlying machinery (partial differential equations) gathering enough data, and building a model (the heat equation) that fits the data and can be used to compute practical approximations. The “idea” part can be done by anyone; the execution is made up of decades of hard work and hard thought by several of the world’s most famous mathematicians, building on centuries of previous effort.

Re: The Value of Ideas

#74

Post by bliss »

jrockway wrote: post #45

It will be called XKCD and have no discernable characters. xkcd has characters. There is hat guy, Megan, Bobby Tables, Randal, and a few others.

Even the main stick man character is the Author's own voice (or that's how I read it). So that's the most prominent character. His "Dilbert" if you will...

Re: The Value of Ideas

#75

Post by bliss »

bliss wrote: post #74
jrockway wrote: post #45

It will be called XKCD and have no discernable characters. xkcd has characters. There is hat guy, Megan, Bobby Tables, Randal, and a few others.

Even the main stick man character is the Author's own voice (or that's how I read it). So that's the most prominent character. His "Dilbert" if you will...

And the mom and the girlfriend and...

Re: The Value of Ideas

#76

Post by timwiseman »

outotrai wrote: post #46
michael_nielsen wrote: post #42

What a curious post. Pure mathematics is nothing but ideas - often very deep ones that very few people are capable of originating. If you take Adams literally, then mathematics is worthless. Is the idea of the Ricci flow, which Perelman used to prove the Poincare conjecture, really useless? The problem Adams is addressing, so far as I can see, is that many people think trivial, easy-to-have ideas are somehow valuable…

I'm shooting from the hip here, but I think maybe there's a distinction to be made between ideas for a product and ideas as a product. The end result of the ideas of mathematicians is mathematics itself - furthering mathematics was the goal all along. Obviously ideas count when you're working within the realm of ideas alone. However, when the ideas are a means to an end (e.g., a movie, say), the implementation is wha…

You make fine points and I agree.

But if I may, it can be expanded on. In mathematics, a theorem is an idea combined with proof. In short, the idea is combined with the knowledge that it is a true and accurate fact (at least within the domain you are working in. Things are true in C that are not true in R), along with some idea why it is true emboddied in the proof. It is this combination of the idea with knowledge it is right that makes it valuable.

To be slightly more concrete, the idea that P = NP is not overly valuable. It is not yet proven either way and it could be true or false. A full proof would be tremendously valuable, and very surprising to many who are very confident P != NP. Creating a proper proof seems much more akin to writing the novel than it is to having the idea for the novel.

Re: The Value of Ideas

#77

Post by timwiseman »

gsk wrote: post #71
michael_nielsen wrote: post #42

What a curious post. Pure mathematics is nothing but ideas - often very deep ones that very few people are capable of originating. If you take Adams literally, then mathematics is worthless. Is the idea of the Ricci flow, which Perelman used to prove the Poincare conjecture, really useless? The problem Adams is addressing, so far as I can see, is that many people think trivial, easy-to-have ideas are somehow valuable…

Interesting. An idea must still have some sort of execution, no? In mathematics, I would have thought that proof is the execution of a purely mathematical idea. Obviously, I do agree with you that some ideas are precious (to take a non-mathematical example, the idea of Freedom). Adams seems to have only had utilitarian ideas in mind. His post didn't strike me as curious, however. I did not expect him to discuss pure…

You bring up an interesting topic. Is the idea of Freedom valuable with no execution?

Freedom itself is almost priceless. I am well aware that the freedoms I enjoy now was bought with the blood of many who went before me. But that was the very costly execution that made freedom a reality. Is the idea, without tht execution to create freedome itself, of great value?

Re: The Value of Ideas

#79

Post by c0riander »

Good ideas have more room for error -- you can take a great idea and do good work and still be successful. Bad ideas require greatness; you have to get it just right.

I think it's the wiggle room that a good idea affords that people latch onto.

Re: The Value of Ideas

#80

Post by blizkreeg »

I run into people blinded by the idea fallacy every now and then and I can't but shake my head. They'll tell me, I have this great idea for for you, but you'll have to pay me or give some equity. And all I feel like doing is vigorously shaking them.
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