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Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

gizmodo.co.uk

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Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#71

Post by gutnor »

jacquesm wrote: post #17
blowski wrote: post #4

A few anecdotes doesn't count as evidence. I voted for Remain, and hope very much that the Brexit process collapses and we end up staying in the EU. But I also don't want to spend the next 2 years being drip-fed poor quality articles about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.

I think that the chances of the Brexit process collapsing just collapsed themselves. The only way to do that was to not trigger Article 50.

I also get the feeling that if the process fails during the negotiations, that's the absolute worst way. It will divide the population further and the EU will be the scapegoat again.

The UK has had 9 months to mend its divided population. Get the facts back as first class citizen in debates, firmly drive out the hate-fueled arguments out and draw a picture of how they wanted the UK to be, realistic picture, not the Leave campaign fantasy. Finally with that done, let the houses discuss where the EU helped or hindered and then vote to proceed or not.

That's not how it happens, dialog didn't happen, the UK is at the same stage of division today (or worse) as it was 9 months ago.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#72

Post by MattLeBlanc001 »

TorKlingberg wrote: post #8

I know at least one programmer who is leaving the UK because of Brexit. Personally I am staying put and assuming things will work out ok.

Same here, EU citizen thinking about the future of my family. I'm in the "wait and see" mode, but if things ugly with the negotiation I will prepare to leave.

I think the biggest problem is not the brain drain, it's the uncertainty. I was planning to buy a house here, but I'm not going to now. This is bad for me and bad for the UK.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#73

Post by bengale »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #61
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as Norway has always rejected EU membership But Norway is in the European Economic Area, meaning the (all or nothing) agreement for "the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital within the European Single Market". if keeping those freedoms are your concern, then you have every right to prefer Norway over England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

But negotiations haven't even started between UK and EU over the terms of the exit and what the relationship will look like in 2 years. Seems this article is trying to take a few anecdotes that have a tenuous relationship at best to Brexit being the real root cause of these people leaving.

Both sides have said we won't be in the single market.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#74

Post by fnord123 »

brango wrote: post #50
patrickaljord wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, once that's done as far as I understand it there is no way back The UK has 2 year to retract as article 50 allows that. 2 years is a long period in UK politics during which a vote of no-confidence could happen, calling for new elections that could retract article 50. Even if the 2 years pass, the EU already said that they would fast track the UK back in if a future government wants to come back. This is not o…

They'll only let us back in the club if they choose to from now on [1]. Basically, they've left the door open for us to vote in a pro-EU party in the next general election and abandon the whole thing. That's why they won't agree a trade deal in the next 2 years. They're hoping, like me, that things will get sufficiently bad in the next 2 years the public gives a mandate to a pro-EU party, and the whole sorry mess can…

>and then we can try Johnson, Farage and the other scumbag liars for treason.

And/or a serious rethink about the value of a free press that is allowed to act as News Corp. (The Sun, The Times) and Daily Mail and General Trust (Daily Mail, Metro, and previously the Evening Standard) have.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#75

Post by atomwaffel »

jacquesm wrote: post #17
blowski wrote: post #4

A few anecdotes doesn't count as evidence. I voted for Remain, and hope very much that the Brexit process collapses and we end up staying in the EU. But I also don't want to spend the next 2 years being drip-fed poor quality articles about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.

I think that the chances of the Brexit process collapsing just collapsed themselves. The only way to do that was to not trigger Article 50.

Not quite:

> the UK will be able to revoke its notification of article 50 but this must be “subject to conditions set by all EU27 so they cannot be used as a procedural device or abused in an attempt to improve the actual terms of the United Kingdom’s membership”. [1]

So in short, remaining is less likely than ever but still possible.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-re...

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#76

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #61
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as Norway has always rejected EU membership But Norway is in the European Economic Area, meaning the (all or nothing) agreement for "the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital within the European Single Market". if keeping those freedoms are your concern, then you have every right to prefer Norway over England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

But negotiations haven't even started between UK and EU over the terms of the exit and what the relationship will look like in 2 years. Seems this article is trying to take a few anecdotes that have a tenuous relationship at best to Brexit being the real root cause of these people leaving.

The EU have been consistently clear that those freedoms are "all or nothing" - you don't e.g. get free trade without free movement, end of.

I would be delighted if England gets the "all" deal like Norway, but that's unlikely since to the Leavers that's a "why bother" Brexit In Name Only.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#78

Post by TorKlingberg »

67726e wrote: post #67
TorKlingberg wrote: post #8

I know at least one programmer who is leaving the UK because of Brexit. Personally I am staying put and assuming things will work out ok.

Are they truly leaving, actually making plans and the like or did they just say they were going to leave because I heard countless friends talk of leaving for Canada if Trump won and not a damn one did.

He has accepted the new job. Not only because of Brexit of course, there are always multiple reasons for moving. His wife had been getting racist / xenophobic comments.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#79

Post by pknight »

jacquesm wrote: post #38
patrickaljord wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, once that's done as far as I understand it there is no way back The UK has 2 year to retract as article 50 allows that. 2 years is a long period in UK politics during which a vote of no-confidence could happen, calling for new elections that could retract article 50. Even if the 2 years pass, the EU already said that they would fast track the UK back in if a future government wants to come back. This is not o…

I don't think you are correct, or at least, the UK supreme court thinks that you are not correct: https://www.businessinsider.nl/uk-supreme-court-article-50-n...

You're misrepresenting the realities of A50 throughout this thread Jacques. The court case in question operated under the premise of the Government's position that A50 is irrevocable. Whether it is or not was not judged, it was just presumed to be irrevocable for the purpose of the case. That's a very important distinction.

A50 is revocable unless a court says it is not and even if questioned, the courts would more than likely rule that it can be revoked. The official position of the European Parliament is that is revocable (1), subject to some conditions that are set out (the UK can't use it as a negotiating tool essentially) and this is also the position of many important EU officials. Piet Eeckhout (EU law professor) recently remarked that it would be unconstitutional to deny the UK a right to revoke A50 should it wish to exercise that option.

It's also a mistake to judge A50 purely in legal terms, political reality is more important in this case. A point made abundantly clear by lawyers reporting on Brexit.

If there's a will on both sides to abandon Brexit, it will be done. For that to happen the political landscape and mood will have to reshape itself. Such a thing is not impossible given that confidence in the economy is trending down and people are becoming more pessimistic (2) and because the many complications that lie ahead will be coming to the foreground. If the choice before Parliament is between a disorderly exit without a deal in 2019 with very clear negative repercussions, it would be unthinkable if they do not intervene.

1) https://www.scribd.com/document/343381933/Draft-Resolution 2) https://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/c36c...

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#80

Post by nl »

djmobley wrote: post #6

Foolish and premature. The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages. It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.

The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages.

That doesn't seem to be the case:

Employers would have to pay a £1,000-a-year fee for every EU skilled worker they bring in after Brexit, under plans being considered by the Government.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-...

or not:

THE Prime Minister has denied the Government is to introduce a £1k charge on every skilled worker from an EU member state recruited by a British employer after Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/753130/May-slaps-down-minis...

ohh, the PM was wrong. Actually, it is introduced next month:

The Home Office has finally published some details on the Immigration Skills Charge Levy, which will come into force on 6 April 2017, subject to parliamentary approval.... The skills charge will be £1,000 per year of the visa (so £3,000 for a 3-year visa) for medium or large sponsors and £364 per year (so £1,092 for a 3-year visa) for charitable or small sponsors...

http://ellint.net/news/sector/cross-border-hr-policies/immig...

I guess the UK doesn't want skilled immigrants.

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