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AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

newscientist.com

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Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#71

Post by collyw »

rorykoehler wrote: post #52
kleiba wrote: post #45

“It could allow non-coders to simply describe an idea for a program and let the system build it” This is not a new thought. The problem with it, however, is that such a description would have to be very precise or else leave room for different interpretations which in turn could lead to very different programs being generated. In particular, as programmers know, it's often the edge cases that pose the main difficulty…

If you can describe something then you can just code it. I can see AI being used in an advanced IDE as an assistant. Just write your specs and let the AI build the app.

This osund like all the promise of JavaBeans many years ago, just drag and drop and let the components write themselves.

Writing code isn't the difficult part about building most software.

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#72

Post by unprepare »

kapv89 wrote: post #67
unprepare wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

making people in an industry more efficient at their jobs == job losses for that industry. if one programmer can now do the work of 5 with the help of an AI, companies will quickly be hiring less developers. yet everytime i mention this, im told that "software developers are the one job that will never be at risk of automation"

Here's my 2 cents on why software developers will never be at the risk of automation: https://medium.com/@kapv89/code-will-always-be-written-207d3...

Immediately i see you have this line:

>And until we develop an AI powerful enough to write clear, step by step instructions for any random task, code will be written.

so its "will never be at risk of automation UNTIL" which is vastly different from "will never be at risk of automation"

The article we are commenting on is about an AI writing code, so im not sure im seeing a convincing argument here.

secondly, automation isnt about some industry disappearing overnight, its about an ever decreasing amount of jobs in that industry. You cant imagine a system/tool/framework that allows such greater efficiency that a single developer can now reach the output of 5 or 10 developers?

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#73

Post by sharemywin »

kleiba wrote: post #58
rorykoehler wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can describe something then you can just code it. I can see AI being used in an advanced IDE as an assistant. Just write your specs and let the AI build the app.

But wouldn't you agree that by the same line of reasoning, if you can spec it, you can code it? I mean, the difficulty lies in specifying what you want in such an unambiguous way that a program that fulfill the specification actually does what you had in mind originally.

but a lot of things use defaults or common practices which could be collected and used. and if this AI had a chat interface it could prompt for some of the requirements. for a lot of users its not knowing the questions. and the pros and cons of the answers.

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#74

Post by collyw »

unprepare wrote: post #62
kk_cz wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that every year programmers ARE more efficient at their jobs with adoption of new tools, frameworks and methodologies. Yet there is still not enough good developers.

yes and each new tool or helpful framework reduces the total number of developers needed. Just because we have yet to meet the demand for developers, doesn't mean that that demand is not decreasing over time. software development is quite a young industry, so its growth can easily outpace the efficiency gains resulting in more developers, until it doesnt. Development as an industry will need to maintain stronger grow…

And every 6 months you need to learn the latest and greatest new framework if you live in JS land.

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#75

Post by syrrim »

unprepare wrote: post #56
rorykoehler wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can describe something then you can just code it. I can see AI being used in an advanced IDE as an assistant. Just write your specs and let the AI build the app.

making people in an industry more efficient at their jobs == job losses for that industry. if one programmer can now do the work of 5 with the help of an AI, companies will quickly be hiring less developers. yet everytime i mention this, im told that "software developers are the one job that will never be at risk of automation"

You're making the assumption that companies need to accomplish a constant amount of work, and that they only hire enough developer to perform this work. I would argue that many companies have a limited budget, and will continue hiring developers to expend this budget. Once hired, there is effectively indefinite work that can be done, and which will better the position of the company. If each developer can do 5x more, then the company will accomplish 5x more, not spend 5x less.

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#76

Post by felixge »

geophile wrote: post #69
kleiba wrote: post #45

“It could allow non-coders to simply describe an idea for a program and let the system build it” This is not a new thought. The problem with it, however, is that such a description would have to be very precise or else leave room for different interpretations which in turn could lead to very different programs being generated. In particular, as programmers know, it's often the edge cases that pose the main difficulty…

Doesn't TDD basically provide a spec? Write a test, then let the AI generate a program that passes the test. If the program is still buggy, you didn't write sufficient tests.

I don't think it's that simple. Imagine a simple add(int32, int32) int32 function. Unless you write a test for all 2^32 * 2^32 possible inputs and their expected outputs, how could you guarantee that the AI will come up with the "correct" implementation?

Automated tests are generally not practical for proofing program correctness. Why would you expect them to be sufficient as a specification format?

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#77

Post by falcolas »

cabalamat wrote: post #60
unprepare wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

making people in an industry more efficient at their jobs == job losses for that industry. if one programmer can now do the work of 5 with the help of an AI, companies will quickly be hiring less developers. yet everytime i mention this, im told that "software developers are the one job that will never be at risk of automation"

> im told that "software developers are the one job that will never be at risk of automation" The AI is itself a program. If the AI can write programs, it can write a better version of itself. A few iterations of this, and it will have far surpassed human intelligence. So it would be more accurate to say that writing programs is the last job that will be automated.

This makes the assumption that every program it writes is somehow guaranteed to be better than the original. Why would it not run into the Multiplicity problem, where each subsequent copy is a bit dumber than the original?

I would think it would be much more likely follow a normal evolutionary model - improve itself to a local maxima, then just stall while the random mutations fail to make the huge leap required to hit the next maxima.

We can't even properly model the human mind in computers yet - not enough processing power - so it follows that an AI which is "better" than humans would require even more processing power than that required to ape humans.

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#78

Post by falcolas »

geophile wrote: post #69
kleiba wrote: post #45

“It could allow non-coders to simply describe an idea for a program and let the system build it” This is not a new thought. The problem with it, however, is that such a description would have to be very precise or else leave room for different interpretations which in turn could lead to very different programs being generated. In particular, as programmers know, it's often the edge cases that pose the main difficulty…

Doesn't TDD basically provide a spec? Write a test, then let the AI generate a program that passes the test. If the program is still buggy, you didn't write sufficient tests.

To completely specify a program via tests, you've effectively written the program. You've also probably written somewhere around 2x the code the actual program would require as well.

I'd be more curious to see an AI write tests...

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#79

Post by falcolas »

A nit I'd like to pick.

No, AI didn't write code. A program explicitly built and trained to write code, wrote code.

A bit too pedantic, perhaps, but there isn't some singular program out there which first learned to play chess, then see and catalog pictures, create creepy art, play Go, drive cars, and now write code. Which is what "AI learns to X" seems to imply.

Of course, that's not as interesting of a headline.

Re: AI learns to write its own code by stealing from other programs

#80

Post by nickdavidhaynes »

falcolas wrote: post #79

A nit I'd like to pick. No, AI didn't write code. A program explicitly built and trained to write code , wrote code. A bit too pedantic, perhaps, but there isn't some singular program out there which first learned to play chess, then see and catalog pictures, create creepy art, play Go, drive cars, and now write code. Which is what "AI learns to X" seems to imply. Of course, that's not as interesting of a headline.

Seeing an article refer to "AI" as if it's a monolith is a really good indicator of the quality of that article.
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