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Zerocoin implementation bug

zcoin.io

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Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#71

Post by rtpg »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #36
brilliantcode wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum takes the record for paying out $53 million dollars (943 BTC X 53 = lots). Technically, it wasn't even theft or a bug since Ethereum & DAO proudly claimed "Code is Final Law". I almost feel like cryptocoin and blockchains are set out to do 1 thing really well-show how superior centralized systems are and how easy it is to trick people with pseudo academic jargon-just read Vitalik's writing peppered with supe…

> how superior centralized systems are Tell us? Because around here, I saw a huge number of bank fraud basically unpunished. "Yes those guys duplicated your SIM and stole all your funds. Too bad for you since we're not going to even try to catch them." Centralized systems might be efficient but the rule is, they don't care about you, so it's not your problems that they're going to solve. At least I can have some fait…

wait a sec.

Someone steals my credit card, and if I notice within 2 months, I can get everything back. Another advantage is that it doesn't take several hours (and huge amounts of wasted electricity) for a transaction to go through. My bank hasn't been siphoning my funds either. I wouldn't trust any cryptocurrency exchange with holding even 10% of my monthly salary.

Sure, governments can get my bank records. But my bank records aren't literally inscribed on a public ledger! I don't have to make a bunch of fake bank accounts to protect my privacy from the random data scientist with the blockchain, because if I use my main account and my identity gets leaked from some random service I used, then now everyone knows who I am.

It doesn't matter if they don't care about me. Nobody cares about me. But the incentives are partially aligned: systems with higher trust require less friction. And things like credit cards prove that you can build protections.

And "code is law" is not really extendable across society. We have contracts, of course. But almost all contracts include a "Use common sense"-style clause, which is the whole point lawyers and judges exist in the first place.

How can you build "force majeur" clauses into code without some third party arbitrator?

Of course, having a decentralized backbone is neat. A long time ago, anyone could make gold coins! It wasn't like some evil cabal was like "Oh, we shall unify all the currencies and CONTROL EVERYTHING!" Centralization happened because it was kinda useful.

Half of cryptocurrency stories are "techies discover why banks do the things they do". For example: I imagine more and more exchanges will partner up to do off-chain transactions. At one point, a lot of stuff will happen off-chain. Question: what do you think Visa does?

I do not see a decentralized currency ever becoming big enough to be a real fraction of economic transactions without it becoming what most of what we have. Competition is good! But I think some cryptocurrency enthusiasts are in for disappointment if they want critical mass

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#72

Post by erikpukinskis »

fpgaminer wrote: post #39

Let me get this straight. Zerocoin has a bug, money gets stolen, the bug is fixed. Everyone in the comments lose their shit and call doom and gloom for all cryptocurrencies. The experiment is failed, centralization was right all along! Meanwhile, centralized systems like credit cards are stolen en masse, identity theft abounds, anybody can file your taxes with the IRS and collect your refund, and an ACH can be initia…

[unusual activity] leads to [bad outcome] -> Unusual activity causes problems and you smell!

[normal activity] leads to [bad outcome] -> Well you must've cocked it up.

See: vegan cooking, meat cooking

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#73

Post by obstinate »

wyager wrote: post #40
brilliantcode wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blockchain and Cryptocoins will face the same fate HYIP forums / Liberty Reserves went through-regulatory enforcement and social stigmatization.

> regulatory enforcement The only place regulatory enforcement could hit Bitcoin is at the fiat exchanges, which are already beholden to KYC/AML. > social stigmatization People have already tried that; "Bitcoin is only for illegal drugs and guns!" Didn't work.

It didn't?

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#74

Post by drcode »

wmf wrote: post #42
fpgaminer wrote: post #39

Let me get this straight. Zerocoin has a bug, money gets stolen, the bug is fixed. Everyone in the comments lose their shit and call doom and gloom for all cryptocurrencies. The experiment is failed, centralization was right all along! Meanwhile, centralized systems like credit cards are stolen en masse, identity theft abounds, anybody can file your taxes with the IRS and collect your refund, and an ACH can be initia…

There is an excess of schadenfreude here, but people are only judging cryptocurrencies against their own inflated claims.

Not really sure where the "shadenfreude" comes in if ethereum was originally sold for 30 cents per ether and is now about 13 dollars an ether.

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#75

Post by drcode »

brilliantcode wrote: post #29
arez wrote: post #8

all these blockchain currencies seem to have really good bug bounty programs, this one gave out almost half a million dollars (410BTC)

Ethereum takes the record for paying out $53 million dollars (943 BTC X 53 = lots). Technically, it wasn't even theft or a bug since Ethereum & DAO proudly claimed "Code is Final Law". I almost feel like cryptocoin and blockchains are set out to do 1 thing really well-show how superior centralized systems are and how easy it is to trick people with pseudo academic jargon-just read Vitalik's writing peppered with supe…

The truth is that people always agree that there are limits to the law and that the law at some level has to be aligned with common sense and the interests of the community... except in the case when saying "LOL CODE IS LAW!" gives them an opportunity stroke their smug egos.

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#76

Post by guard-of-terra »

rtpg wrote: post #71
guard-of-terra wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how superior centralized systems are Tell us? Because around here, I saw a huge number of bank fraud basically unpunished. "Yes those guys duplicated your SIM and stole all your funds. Too bad for you since we're not going to even try to catch them." Centralized systems might be efficient but the rule is, they don't care about you, so it's not your problems that they're going to solve. At least I can have some fait…

wait a sec. Someone steals my credit card, and if I notice within 2 months, I can get everything back. Another advantage is that it doesn't take several hours (and huge amounts of wasted electricity) for a transaction to go through. My bank hasn't been siphoning my funds either. I wouldn't trust any cryptocurrency exchange with holding even 10% of my monthly salary. Sure, governments can get my bank records. But my b…

Someone steals the control of your banking account, they take everything and there's no way of getting those money back.

Credit cards are peculiar in this regard.

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#77

Post by rtpg »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #76
rtpg wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wait a sec. Someone steals my credit card, and if I notice within 2 months, I can get everything back. Another advantage is that it doesn't take several hours (and huge amounts of wasted electricity) for a transaction to go through. My bank hasn't been siphoning my funds either. I wouldn't trust any cryptocurrency exchange with holding even 10% of my monthly salary. Sure, governments can get my bank records. But my b…

Someone steals the control of your banking account, they take everything and there's no way of getting those money back. Credit cards are peculiar in this regard.

I am not 100% sure, but my understanding is that the bank is liable for those losses unless they can prove gross negligence on your part. I've heard that legal argument, at least. [0]

Though this is not worse from your cryptocurrency. If they get a hold of your private keys, you lose everything. At least in the classical banking system you have some legal recourse.

[0]: I might just be thinking of this comedy sketch though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#78

Post by kentonv »

tdfx wrote: post #56
kentonv wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stating the obvious here, but... Fiat financial security is based on monitoring, paper trails, and legal consequences for fraud. Yes, you can initiate a fraudulent ACH knowing only the numbers printed on a check you received, but you'll probably end up in jail for it. It's far from perfect but it mostly works. Cryptocurrency intentionally doesn't have any paper trails. Anonymity is the selling point. If you find a bu…

Actually the whole point of the distributed blockchain is that there's a very public paper trail. The only hope for anonymity is obfuscating the movement of value through the blockchain, which can be accomplished to varying degrees depending on the sophistication of who is trying to track you. If your theft is high profile enough then you'll have a good deal of trouble liquidating your funds anonymously.

As others pointed out, Zerocoin intentionally provides much more anonymity than Bitcoin.

But even with Bitcoin, money laundering is much easier than it is under the regular banking system.

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#79

Post by obstinate »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #36
brilliantcode wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum takes the record for paying out $53 million dollars (943 BTC X 53 = lots). Technically, it wasn't even theft or a bug since Ethereum & DAO proudly claimed "Code is Final Law". I almost feel like cryptocoin and blockchains are set out to do 1 thing really well-show how superior centralized systems are and how easy it is to trick people with pseudo academic jargon-just read Vitalik's writing peppered with supe…

> how superior centralized systems are Tell us? Because around here, I saw a huge number of bank fraud basically unpunished. "Yes those guys duplicated your SIM and stole all your funds. Too bad for you since we're not going to even try to catch them." Centralized systems might be efficient but the rule is, they don't care about you, so it's not your problems that they're going to solve. At least I can have some fait…

At least in the US, you cannot lose much money because of fraudulent electronic funds transfers, unless you ignore the fraud for more than sixty days. https://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/supmanual/cch/efta.... See section V "Consumer Liability and Error Resolution."

Re: Zerocoin implementation bug

#80

Post by guard-of-terra »

rtpg wrote: post #77
guard-of-terra wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone steals the control of your banking account, they take everything and there's no way of getting those money back. Credit cards are peculiar in this regard.

I am not 100% sure, but my understanding is that the bank is liable for those losses unless they can prove gross negligence on your part. I've heard that legal argument, at least. [0] Though this is not worse from your cryptocurrency. If they get a hold of your private keys, you lose everything. At least in the classical banking system you have some legal recourse. [0]: I might just be thinking of this comedy sketch…

Your private keys have limited attack surface, especially if they're in cold storage.

However, your banking account has unlimited attack surface. It's on some remote information system that you do not control and never will. As I already said, I'm not a big believer in "legal recourse", it's as well to be used to take money from you as to return them back.

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