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I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

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Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#71
post #46

This is hysteria. "he signed an executive order that literally, not figuratively, banned Muslims from entering the US" Of the 10 countries with the largest Muslim populations, only one - Iran - has been restricted: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_proje... The list of countries was previously drawn up by the Obama administration. I'm not in favor of the restrictions, but there is no need to make…

- It was a ban of people from 7 muslim-dominated countries - It excepts non-Muslims (religious test) - It includes dual-citizens, and permanent residents. Even when you become the citizen of another country, you're still tainted according to the EO. Even when you've been vetted for the green card, you're still tainted. - Guiliani is on the record that Trump said "I want a Muslim ban" and this was drafted to be the "m…

I can't find any mention of Islam, Muslims, Christians etc in the order: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/27/donald-trump...

And are you suggesting it's wrong to prioritise religious minorities who are being murdered? Would you, during WW2, say no to Jews, because it would be a 'religious test'?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#72

> And he signed an executive order that literally, not figuratively, banned Muslims from entering the US. Isn't "banned muslims" the wrong choice of words here? You could enter US as a muslim from e.g. Malaysia still.

No. No it is not. "Trump asked for a ‘Muslim ban,’ Giuliani says — and ordered a commission to do it ‘legally’" “How did the president decide the seven countries?” she asked. “Okay, talk to me.” “I'll tell you the whole history of it,” Giuliani responded eagerly. “So when [Trump] first announced it, he said, 'Muslim ban.' He called me up. He said, 'Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally.'"…

Still it is not. Because when you leave out China, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Algeria, Morocco, Pakistan, Germany, Turkey, UK, France ... which each have a lot of Muslims there whether in relative or absolute terms.

The ban is only for arabs in very unstable countries and Iran. There is no good reason to allow entry of people from countries that are at (civil) war and Iran is adversary, so there is no reason for non diplomatic personal Iranians to enter US at all.

They way I see it there is no fundamental right of foreigners to enter US. It is a privilege given by the discretion of the executive branch.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#73
> As of 2017, the United States, through a sequence of highly improbable events, managed to elect an extremely controversial president.

I think it a mistake to see this as a random fluke and chuck it up to chance. It seems like chance to those who were asleep or were watching news from their own bubble.

Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions which created Trump, if we only pay attention to what is in our own Facebook feed we'll end up with another Trump, and another. Every time assuming it was random or an act of God or Russians or whatever.

Also where were all these prominent tech people and CEOs when Obama was Hillary were busy destabilizing the region, bombing civilians and arming rebels in that part of the world. I find a bit hypocritical everyone being upset about a travel ban and not upset about much worse stuff. But this is about waking up so it is a good first step.

> And he signed an executive order that literally, not figuratively, banned Muslims from entering the US

It was a list created by the Obama administration for largely the same purpose. And was even used for a while to actually ban people from a Muslim country. Was there any outrage, how many tech leaders pledged to oppose the unfair blocking of refugees then? Also why didn't Trump block Indonesia instead if this this infamous Muslim ban. If this was a general Muslim ban it doesn't seem very effective just based on the countries it covers.

Let's criticize Trump and his politcies but is this the main and most serious thing to expend all the effort on? We should be paying attention to his cabinet picks, trade deals, economic and military policies.

And also, to be effective it is important to have well defined and realistic goal. Goals such as "removing Trump" are probably not realistic for the next 4 years. But in this case maybe trying to remove some countries from the ban like Iran for ex., or lobbying and campaigning to allow green card holders to be unaffected by it is better.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#74
post #68

Nice post, though there are some caveats. As a Pole (as some of you know, we do have some issues here too, though many would disagree) I feel at least a bit competent to give you a bit of advice, so you can get out of it better than we did. 1. Donald Trump is not your enemy, nor a problem. He is a manifestation of the problem, which is current state of your society and problems you have. Do not believe that you can j…

> It is quite likely, that if Democrats nominated Sanders, he would win with Trump.

I haven't seen a single political analysis which shows a path for him to do that. Do you have any examples?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#76
post #5

You know what a lot of people consider worse than Donald Trump? The status quo. That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib mark…

> There's a lot not to like about Donald Trump, but for one thing he is an outsider to the established system Or from another perspective a billionaire managed to get elected through spending enormous amounts of cash on a huge publicity machine that imprinted a simplistic and repetitive message of being an outsider on large numbers of people as if that in itself is a positive quality. /Serial killers/ are outsiders.

To be fair, he didn't spend an enormous amount of cash -relative to other political campaigns-. Didn't need to because he got a lot of free advertising from the media (eg. his fake-birther/really-his-hotel announcement that got wide coverage.)

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#77
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Both parties are the same" is such a tired meme considering what has happened the past 8 days. Do you think President Clinton would be defunding planned parenthood? Planning a repeal of a healthcare law without a replacement, making 20 million people lose their health insurance immediately? Appoint a brain surgeon to HUD? Do you think Democrats would set up this muslim ban? Not a 6-month refugee ban, but a ban from…

It isn't that both parties are the same on all issues, it's that there are important issues that no viable candidate would actually address. Do you think President Clinton would end NSA mass surveillance? Reduce copyright terms? Meaningfully reform Wall St? Meaningfully reform the tax code or social spending? Republicans won't either. That's the problem. You get enough people frustrated enough and they vote for whoev…

Actually no, none of your stated problems are important to trump supporters or reasons for him to be elected. America first appeals to them, in spite of, or sometimes because of, all the nasty implications of it and the racial and social revolution it requires.

Trump will not stop NSA surveillance, reduce copyright terms, meaningfully reform Wall St (he hired Goldman Sachs alumni), meaningfully reform the tax code or social spending. He is a nationalist not a globalist, that's his agenda not the points you raised.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-22/goldman-i...

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ye, this place is for talking about tech or problems and solutions to problems. This is just soapboxing.

a.k.a. keeping one's head in the sand.

its more diplomatic than that. I have very strong opinions I just choose where I present them and where I dont. We're engineers, we're here to share with other engineers and solve problems irrespective of the other engineers beliefs, political alignments or whims. I would not want to turn this place into another spot for activism, there are other fine spots for that sort of thing.

Lets talk about code and business please.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#79
post #32
post #5

You know what a lot of people consider worse than Donald Trump? The status quo. That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib mark…

> he is an outsider to the established system He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million. He didn't pay his taxes. His chief of staff was chairman of the Republican party. His cabinet have a combined net worth of $6 billion. If anyone represents the powers-that-be, he does. If anyone has a glib marketing campaign, it's the Trump presidency in claiming to be 'outsiders'. And if you think the political system…

>He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million

He didn't inherit it with a bunch of strings attached from lobbyists. The Clintons have been pulling money into their foundation leveraging political connections built up over decades. People don't care that he's rich with daddy's money, they care that it's not "decades of political speeches and political fundraising money".

>He didn't pay his taxes

He would be a moron if he didn't pay the legally required amount. The fact that people think taking a loss write-off is some kind of black mark shows how stupid many people really are.

>And if you think the political system is broken, well, you haven't seen nothing yet

You may be right, but many people were voting in a massive change to the system. "drain the swap" was the slogan

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#80
post #6

Wonderfully written, giving my thoughts a word. For me and my wife, the USA, despite all their shortcomings, are a country we really want to live in. It stands for many good things. It is not a country you want to mess with, and we are fine with that. We embrace American culture, we love American companies, we so far respected American politicians. For stuff we as individuals are interested in (which might not be wha…

Damn I'm sorry. This is truly the opposite of making America great.
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