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Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

nejm.org

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Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#71
post #58
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a sustainable choice for our economy, it leads to too many people living like nothing could possibly go wrong until they need a doctor. The point of insurance is to distribute risk, not participating in that effectively negates the effectiveness of the industry.

The whole idea of health insurance is backwards and inconsistent with a free market in my opinion (fraudulent). The problem is that the government has enshrined it as the gateway to healthcare. Insurance is a useful product for mitigating risk, so accident insurance could be a very constructive concept (protecting against accidental injuries, broken arms, falls, car crashes, etc.). However, health problems are not a…

The basic concept of health insurance works fine. Yes, your probability of dying approaches 1 as you age, but the costs you incur along the way can vary enormously. Somebody who's wonderfully healthy until they instantly die in bed of a heart attack will cost the insurer basically nothing, while somebody with a chronic condition can easily cost millions of dollars over decades. Costs can vary enormously depending on your luck, which is just the sort of thing insurance is good for.

There are big problems with running the whole system using insurance, of course. It's fairly easy to predict future costs for a lot of people. Given free reign, insurers will charge completely unaffordable premiums to those people, effectively excluding them from the system. You see the same thing with other types of insurance: if you have a horrible driving record, or if your house is in an area that gets a devastating hurricane every ten years, your premiums will be huge. The difference is that those are optional activities, and if you can't afford the premiums then you can walk, bike, hitch a ride, buy a different house, etc. A sick person can't switch to a healthy body.

That's why the ACA has the mandate. If you require everyone to pay in, then you can also require insurers to ignore certain predictors of future risk when determining premiums.

Fundamentally, there are only two choices. One choice is to have lots of people dying of easily treated conditions because they can't afford the treatment, and the other choice is to have government step in and socialize the system to some extent. The system was already socialized before the ACA with the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act, which requires hospital emergency rooms to treat all patients regardless of ability to pay. This was horribly inefficient, of course, but that's how it was.

So: choose your poison. If you think the advantages of going full free market in health care outweigh having poor people die of easily treatable diseases, then that's a valid opinion, but you should acknowledge the negative consequences. If you want poor people to be able to obtain treatment, then you'll need to accept some interference, the only question is how you'd like to have it be structured.

Edit: rather than "poor people," I really should say "people whom the hospital thinks are poor." If you get beaten up and mugged and left for dead, the ER won't know if you have money, and might decide not to take the risk. There are good reasons for even a selfish wealthy person to want some form of universal treatment.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#72
post #53
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a sustainable choice for our economy, it leads to too many people living like nothing could possibly go wrong until they need a doctor. The point of insurance is to distribute risk, not participating in that effectively negates the effectiveness of the industry.

That's not quite true. For instance, life insurance takes a varying times for it to kick in (varies depending on type and amount, as well as which state's laws apply.) It's quite possible that your health insurance could be limited at first, and grows to cover more things and higher dollar amounts. And before anyone says you can't do this, go look at your dental insurance. Odds are that your coverage increases each y…

I've never heard of anyone getting hit with a million-dollar bill for dental work, so I don't think that's quite the existence proof you want it to be.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#73
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false dichotomy, which assumes that the only possible alternatives are Obamacare and no insurance at all. Not to mention that the majority of people who do have Obamacare are getting subsidized by the government (i.e., they're "moochers", in your terminology). How does making this public subsidy pass through more sets of pockets before it gets to the doctor make it any less "mooching"? Please be specific. A…

> This is a false dichotomy, which assumes that the only possible alternatives are Obamacare and no insurance at all. No it isn't, the parent poster made no judgement about the system available, just that one must participate. What that system looks like is an entirely different debate to the "I should be able to not have insurance" debate. > Also, what about the people with expensive preexisting conditions? Virtuall…

"That is the entire point of insurance"

If you are allowed to buy "health insurance" after you are already sick, it's not "insurance" at all. Sorry, it just isn't.

Do you also think that you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house is already on fire, or car insurance after you've already had the accident?

Note again, and note well, that I'm not saying that people who are already sick should be abandoned. That is a real problem and one which should be addressed. I'm saying that bundling them into an "insurance" program makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes even less sense when you bundle them into Obamacare, the other users of which tend to be poor. I mean, they weren't able to afford insurance before... and now they're expected to not only cover their own costs, but the costs of all those with preexisting conditions? How did anyone expect that to work?

If you insist on funding the preexisting folks by charges on another risk pool, it probably should be done across the board (i.e., by charging the costs of the preexisting folks to all recipients of health insurance, not just the ones unfortunate enough to be stuck with Obamacare). That, at least, would have spread those costs over a much larger pool.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#74
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might not, but they are probably lobbied by doctors, hospital administrators, and insurance executives, all of whom are likely to at least skim the top medical journals.

I don't think any of these groups care much about affordable Care.

Some articles have suggested that ACA repeal poses an existential threat to rural hospitals and even the private healthcare industry, so those groups definitely care about remaining in business.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#75
post #48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our HMO we used at old job hated ACA. At least their representative told us that informally. Another doctor I know also does not like. Someone who is self-employed with a pre-existing condition really likes it. It was hard for them to get insurance before.

The US system certainly makes a lot of money for providers and insurances. Otherwise it would be cheaper. The money must be going somewhere. These people don't want change.

> These people don't want change.

Well, unless the change brings them more money. In this case I guess it didn't.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#76
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a pretty prestigious journal... It is but these days it can hard to know going by past reputation alone. There seems to be a push by some sleazy publishers to buy prestigious medical journals and then take money to publish questionable studies. Even the watchdogs who have tried to warn everyone have given up (or were forced to shut up). http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/website-tracking-so-called-pred...

While I appreciate the skepticism, and it is sad that there is an apparently increasing number of questionable journals out there, do you have any evidence that NEJM is one of them? They're currently run by the NEJM Group, which is controlled by the Massachusetts Medical Society. http://www.massmed.org

No I'm not saying NEJM is I was trying to raise awareness of the situation.

That's good to know NEJM is run by a stable group.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#77
post #57
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a sustainable choice for our economy, it leads to too many people living like nothing could possibly go wrong until they need a doctor. The point of insurance is to distribute risk, not participating in that effectively negates the effectiveness of the industry.

You're making the assumption that nobody could possibly pay for their health care out of pocket. That's just not true, even with health care as expensive as it is these days.

With the exception of the most wealthy (ie, Bill Gates), I guarantee that there is a health issue that would bankrupt you. Also, if you are that wealthy, why wouldn't you insure your health? It would be a pittance compared to your overall wealth and just simply a prudent thing to do. I bet you that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have health insurance.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#78
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd like the choice to not have any insurance

That's not a sustainable choice for our economy, it leads to too many people living like nothing could possibly go wrong until they need a doctor. The point of insurance is to distribute risk, not participating in that effectively negates the effectiveness of the industry.

Actually that's not what makes it expensive. It leads to too many people making very poor health choices and becoming obese or engaging in palliative care to eek out 2 more miserable weeks of existence at enormous costs to healthcare providers.

Young people, and especially young, healthy people are the ones subsidizing the elderly and the unhealthy, including most of those who are unhealthy by choice through poor decisions.

> The point of insurance is to distribute risk

Perverse incentives. Insurance needs to be structured in such a way as to incentivize people to take part in preventive care, which costs a fraction of treatment and palliative care.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other countries manage it fine, and the costs here are overblown. Aetna claimed last year that it was pulling out of the ACA over costs, but it has emerged that this was a purely strategic decision after the FTC or the SEC declined to support a merger the firm wanted to enter into. http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-aetna-... I reject the claim that 'we just can't afford it', and claim instead that…

They are not. With 50-70% income tax on It's citizens, they are not just fine. Do your research. Long waits, little access to specialised docs. People are dying waiting in line.

I come from such a country and your complaints are hyperbolic. I was in hospital a lot of a child and if we didn't have public healthcare it would probably have bankrupted my family. Public health systems are far from perfect, but they're still pretty damn good.

Re: Barack Obama Publishes Defense of the ACA in the New England Journal of Medicine

#80
post #71
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of health insurance is backwards and inconsistent with a free market in my opinion (fraudulent). The problem is that the government has enshrined it as the gateway to healthcare. Insurance is a useful product for mitigating risk, so accident insurance could be a very constructive concept (protecting against accidental injuries, broken arms, falls, car crashes, etc.). However, health problems are not a…

The basic concept of health insurance works fine. Yes, your probability of dying approaches 1 as you age, but the costs you incur along the way can vary enormously. Somebody who's wonderfully healthy until they instantly die in bed of a heart attack will cost the insurer basically nothing, while somebody with a chronic condition can easily cost millions of dollars over decades. Costs can vary enormously depending on…

> If you think the advantages of going full free market in health care outweigh having poor people die of easily treatable diseases, then that's a valid opinion, but you should acknowledge the negative consequences.

How does one lead to the other? Social safety nets are not mutually exclusive with removing a lot of other market barriers. See my prior comment on this thread -- our healthcare market is the most distorted in the world (even when compared to 'universal healthcare' countries). Freer market means 'easily treatable' conditions are cheap, as opposed to our current system where they are expensed behind oppressively occupationally licensed practitioners selling monopolized medical products, where a 10 minute checkup with a dermatologist out-of-pocket is nearly $500. But regardless, it is certainly an interesting, quantifiable argument (albeit hypothetical) that a 20% speed increase medical innovation in a free market could be measured against lives saved with today's medicine in a socialized system, assuming that system makes services as affordable/accessible as intended.

Here's the reason health insurance as an industry can be considered fraudulent, especially when it's generally the gateway to all healthcare access -- and why ACA fails to fix it. Pre-existing conditions and re-adjusted contract rates.

If there was one company and one client, they could certainly craft a perfectly sound insurance contract to pay a set rate with steady increases over X years in exchange for coverage in the event of future, currently unascertainable medical services. But if you are responsible and get insurance BEFORE you get sick (by the way, not much sympathy for those who do not and demand that insurers take them, since that's the whole point of insurance), you are effectively tied to this contract and can never again negotiate another of equal value after you have been diagnosed with a condition, even though your initial/current contract already priced in the risk of getting those conditions. In fact, the rates to cover your risk, which need to be higher on average than the amount of healthcare you actually use, become ridiculous quite quickly. This problem is amplified by the fact that the government thought it was a good idea to tie healthcare to employers, so people switch very frequently and therefore are forced to renegotiate contracts frequently, robbing them of lost value that would be acquired if they were able to ride out the original contract.

So to say health insurance is inherently fraudulent is hyperbole, but in the current setup, it functionally is, because it is non-transferrable. ACA attempts to address this problem by subsidizing those who do not make much money and forces insurers to take everyone, but this just adds artificial demand (due to the subsidies especially) up to the amount of the maximum subsidy and raises everyone's rates (although those who are subsidized will see somewhat lower rates), and does nothing to address risk renegotiation, especially since it includes people who never had a contract. Similar economic effect as student loans/student aid. Each dollar increase in student aid raises tuition by over 40 cents... the rest is probably distributed across student housing, amenities, textbook prices, concert prices in college towns, etc.

A better way to eliminate the fraud, while still limiting ourselves to an insurance-dominated system, would be to legally codify standards for contract negotiations, which would allow contracts to be traded/transferred between companies, effectively locking in your risk at the time you first get uninterrupted insurance (and perhaps some protections for temporary uninsured periods).

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