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The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

washingtonpost.com

71–80 of 106 posts

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#71
post #7

This article has a glaring logic flaw. After COLA, Asians and Whites show roughly the same median household income. But among minorities, Asians still have higher median household incomes than their Black and Hispanic counterparts. The author barely makes an attempt explain why this is the case. Doesn't the data just reinforce the perception that Asians are the model minority? So what the article should have said, is…

People don't have negative stereotypes towards Asians like they do for blacks and hispanics. People assume they are intelligent. When an Asian man walks down the street, white peoples don't cross to the other side like when they encounter a black man. If you see an Asian in a BMW people assume they are a doctor or engineer, if you see a black person in a BMW, people assume they are a drug dealer, the car is stolen, o…

> People don't have negative stereotypes towards Asians like they do for blacks and hispanics

They absolutely, absolutely do have negative stereotypes towards Asians. There are a different set of negative stereotypes (and in fact, different stereotypes for East Asians, South Asians, and West Asians), but there very much are negative stereotypes towards those groups.

The effect of these stereotypes is sometimes mitigated by the fact that Asians, unlike African-Americans, largely came to the US (a) of their own free will, and (b) on work visas which explicitly bias selection in favor of previous wealth and education status. But on the other hand, in other cases, the effect of these stereotypes is enhanced by this difference as well - it depends on the situation in which they manifest.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#72
post #9

This is such incredibly poor agenda-driven "journalism", with cherry-picked data used to (poorly) attack a sort of straw man argument: Asian Americans seem to offer proof that minorities can prosper — and even leapfrog whites — if they work hard and jump through the right hoops. For that reason, Asian Americans have often been invoked as a way to excuse the income gaps between whites and blacks or whites and Hispanic…

I suspect you'll get a series of high fives and fist bumps just for criticising "mainstream liberalism," no matter how valid the criticism, because that's in vogue right now. You're living under a rock if you believe nobody is studying or confronting IQ and culture and how it relates to race. It's just it's not really intellectually profound to repeat and rehash the same old "scientific racism" that's been going on f…

Have you ever considered that there's a good reason for that fad?

I just graduated from an elite American college, and almost everyone there was extremely condescending about the idea that race and IQ were at all correlated. They felt similarly about racial culture and success. In these powerful people's eyes, the underperformance of non-White and non-Asian races is ~100% the fault of White people and their machinations.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#73
post #33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you realize it - but your comment is the problem, not the original poster. Sometimes facts don't fit a political narrative. Comments like yours are what have polarized the nation. Your knee-jerk reaction to anything that disagrees with your position is to name-call and shame. Not very good form.

The problem is so-called "race realists" boiling complex sociological issues down by way of lazy and fallacious thinking, and then not-so-subtly implying that there is a racial basis for intelligence and human worth. The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation.

No, many studies have worked hard to control for sociological effects and concluded that there are likely still correlations between race and IQ.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#74
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of disagree in this case. As a general rule I think ideas should be debated objectively and with facts, but when someone so clearly promotes the idea that there are human races that are genetically distinct and map onto traits like intelligence and success I just think of the legacy that this line of thinking has given us: death, torture, and poverty throughout human history on a scale that's impossible to com…

And you can find any number of analyses that all conclude, "yup, the link is completely spurious". The subject isn't debatable in polite company because it has been refuted so comprehensively that the only reason to still stick to it is an unwavering dedication to white nationalist ideology. On this topic, there is no good faith.

Please stop saying this in various comments here. It isn't true. Someone linked you to the relevant Wikipedia article, which references a lot of good sources you should become familiar with.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#75
post #45
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're on the money. Sadly, the only way to even discuss culture's role without being labelled a bigot is to discuss the cultural differences within white Americans. When you're talking about how cultural traits prevalent in Appalachian communities like the one I grew up in exacerbate inequality, suddenly you have an audience. See the author J.D. Vance who wrote 'Hillbilly Elegy', and has subsequently become a darlin…

Why do you blame culture, but ignore historical practices like redlining, or the obvious correlation with poverty, or the fact that American black people have had scarcely 50 years of equality under the law? That drugs in black communities are treated as crime, but drugs in white communities are seen as a public health crisis? There are hundreds of issues of infinitely more substance than whether black children are c…

A bigot? Really?

"There are hundreds of issues of infinitely more substance than whether black children are conceived in wedlock."

This is where it's obvious that you are yet another non-black person who has never lived in a predominantly black community or extensively socialized with large groups of black folks in real contexts. I've attended black churches countless times, been a best man and/or a groomsman in two weddings with two very good friends who happen to be black, and my own wedding party was my brother, and white coworker, and two black men who are my oldest friends. I don't point out the lack of fathers in the black community because I'm a bigot. I point it out because I care and don't believe America can succeed without the betterment of black America.

Fatherless children are vastly more likely to end up in jail, dead, or at best drop-outs. You talk about drugs and poverty, and act as if being raised without a father doesn't directly impact that? Are you fucking serious? I'm not "judging" the black community for lack of fathers. I'm characterizing a real problem that is obviously a root cause of many others. People like you who reflexively jump to cries of "bigot" don't help. You hurt by enabling the demagogues to continue to act as if the real challenges imposed on blacks by systemic racism are equal to the challenges imposed by a broken culture that was created by white racism but has now, post Civil Rights Act, morphed into a self-perpetuating feedback loop.

Now if you excuse me I'm going to go home to my mixed-race children and continue to hate them since I'm such a bigot according to some dipshit on the internet. I'll have to kick my wife out too. Can't believe I didn't see she wasn't an Aryan before.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#76
post #7

This article has a glaring logic flaw. After COLA, Asians and Whites show roughly the same median household income. But among minorities, Asians still have higher median household incomes than their Black and Hispanic counterparts. The author barely makes an attempt explain why this is the case. Doesn't the data just reinforce the perception that Asians are the model minority? So what the article should have said, is…

People don't have negative stereotypes towards Asians like they do for blacks and hispanics. People assume they are intelligent. When an Asian man walks down the street, white peoples don't cross to the other side like when they encounter a black man. If you see an Asian in a BMW people assume they are a doctor or engineer, if you see a black person in a BMW, people assume they are a drug dealer, the car is stolen, o…

> People don't have negative stereotypes towards Asians

yes they do.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#77
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of disagree in this case. As a general rule I think ideas should be debated objectively and with facts, but when someone so clearly promotes the idea that there are human races that are genetically distinct and map onto traits like intelligence and success I just think of the legacy that this line of thinking has given us: death, torture, and poverty throughout human history on a scale that's impossible to com…

And you can find any number of analyses that all conclude, "yup, the link is completely spurious". The subject isn't debatable in polite company because it has been refuted so comprehensively that the only reason to still stick to it is an unwavering dedication to white nationalist ideology. On this topic, there is no good faith.

The fallacy propagated by racists is: genetics = race, therefore "genetic differences account for intelligence" implies "racial differences account for intelligence."

Which is obviously not true, but you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's actually an open secret among psychologists that genetics is moderately linked to intelligence and other things like workplace success, though no one that I know will admit even to entertaining the idea, because that would mean career suicide and death threats. But it's not a white supremacist thing. In fact, it can even be seen as the opposite. Race doesn't matter at all as long as you possess those genes for intelligence.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#78
post #9

This is such incredibly poor agenda-driven "journalism", with cherry-picked data used to (poorly) attack a sort of straw man argument: Asian Americans seem to offer proof that minorities can prosper — and even leapfrog whites — if they work hard and jump through the right hoops. For that reason, Asian Americans have often been invoked as a way to excuse the income gaps between whites and blacks or whites and Hispanic…

> "how does their nonetheless COL-adjusted near parity (still ahead!) vs. whites undermine the idea that minorities can succeed in the USA?"

The article never claimed to undermine the idea that minorities can succeed in the USA. It claims to undermine the idea that Asian Americans (and minorities in general) can be more successful than whites in similar circumstances. And it has done a pretty good job at that. As the article shows, after adjusting for COL, Asians make as much as Whites, and in fact, make less than whites who are similarly qualified. I've yet to see anyone dispute the math presented.

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#79
post #9

This is such incredibly poor agenda-driven "journalism", with cherry-picked data used to (poorly) attack a sort of straw man argument: Asian Americans seem to offer proof that minorities can prosper — and even leapfrog whites — if they work hard and jump through the right hoops. For that reason, Asian Americans have often been invoked as a way to excuse the income gaps between whites and blacks or whites and Hispanic…

>This is such incredibly poor agenda-driven "journalism", with cherry-picked data used to (poorly) attack a sort of straw man argument

You just described the Washington Post.

I mean, they said in their "news" section that the Ron Paul Institute was Russian Propaganda, which was just a part of their McCarthyite agenda against political dissenters[1]

I'd avoid anything by the WaPo, it's corporate media fake news.

1 - https://theintercept.com/2016/11/26/washington-post-disgrace...

>mainstream liberalism is frankly bordering on fraudulence with its refusal to confront these topics.

I would say it is fraudulent. The taboo on addressing racial differences, especially intelligence, in academia and the media is only taboo if it concludes whites are superior to minorities.

For example, "white people can't dance," is a culturally acceptable racist remark. "Asians are better at math" is also culturally acceptable. Any comment that breaks that rule is unacceptable. It's the same in academia and in the courts. If you publish research or a supreme court opinion that minorities are of lower intelligence, like the book, The Bell Curve, or in Justice Scalia's case, you will receive ridicule (and whether just coincidentally or as part of conspiracy theory territory - will be certain of dying a premature death)[2]. Publishing that minorities are above-average intelligence is perfectly acceptable, though [3]. Teaching through a college course that being white is a problem is also acceptable - that's because it fits the rule [4].

Queue everyone calling me alt-right or racist or something awful just for pointing out the fact that everyone knows. It's like 1984. I really hate racism. My best friend I grew up with on my street as a child is black, and I can tell you, kids grow up color blind and are not racist. It's this toxic political correctness and government that perpetuates problems of the past. I have no idea what the further agenda is in perpetuating inequality and inciting further anger and inequality. Everyone should be treated equal, especially in eyes of government. Where we are headed is we are already getting close to Harrison-Bergeron'ing people because of their skin color and past injustice.

All racism should not be tolerated.

If the problem with government is even worse than I thought then I will end up on some kind of "political dissidents" list just for spelling out these problems.

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve 3 - http://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbi... 4 - http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/midwest/ct-un...

Re: The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion

#80
post #33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you realize it - but your comment is the problem, not the original poster. Sometimes facts don't fit a political narrative. Comments like yours are what have polarized the nation. Your knee-jerk reaction to anything that disagrees with your position is to name-call and shame. Not very good form.

The problem is so-called "race realists" boiling complex sociological issues down by way of lazy and fallacious thinking, and then not-so-subtly implying that there is a racial basis for intelligence and human worth. The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation.

> The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation

I think you're the one constructing a narrative. From what I'm aware of, there IS a correlation between race and IQ, and it is strong. And it is borne out by study after study. Stronger than the effects of environment and education. Even in the famous Minnesota transracial twin study where adopted black children are raised by wealthy white parents, " the IQs of adopted black children reared by white families did not differ significantly from that of black children raised by their biological parents."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...

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