Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 83 posts

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#71

Post by simonh »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #29

> The well-choreographed customs routine is part of a hidden bounty of perks, tax breaks and subsidies in China that supports the world’s biggest iPhone factory, according to confidential government records reviewed by The New York Times, as well as more than 100 interviews with factory workers, logistics handlers, truck drivers, tax specialists and current and former Apple executives. The package of sweeteners and i…

I have a hard time understanding why (presumably?) a US citizen would be against foreign governments subsidizing US companies. Isn't that a good thing? After all this is a US company that employs hundreds of thousands of Americans and in 2015 paid $2.7bn in tax on it's global profits at an overall rate of about 25.5%, most of it in the US.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/does-apple-pay-tax-h...

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#72

Post by bisby »

SanFranManDan wrote: post #24
bisby wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a family of 6 (lets assume 2 parents and 4 kids) all working for 50 cents an hour. Saying "your kids have to go to school and not work" and then paying the adults 3 dollars an hour. The family winds up making more money without the kids having to work. (in this admittedly limited example, the family makes double) If you take the kids out of the equation without increasing the parental pay, then yes, you'l…

So now the cost of labor went up 6x? Don't you see a problem in that solution? The people only have jobs because labor is so cheap. Other countries don't have child labor laws because their job market evolved and pushed the low labor cost jobs into other countries.

I agree that labor cost is going to go up. And the whole point of this being enforced from the US side through tariffs and import regulations is so that when country A enacts child labor laws, Apple doesn't just move to country B.

And I'm aware that it's a complicated, sensitive topic. That was my point. But dismissing it entirely because solution X creates problem Y instead of finding solution Y (which probably causes problem Z, which will have a solution eventually too) is not the right answer. Saying "Well we just can't solve this problem, they get to live in squalor and there's NOTHING that can be done to help them" is ridiculous.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#73

Post by parhurs »

muninn_ wrote: post #52
gertef wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't blindly assert that Maoist China was not Euro style and modern China is Euro style, and also claim that Maoist China has nothing to do with modern China's economy. There's a near-direct line from Maoist China to modern China -- the next generation of the same Communist Party is in charge.

You did notice that they liberalized the Chinese economy, right? That's why it's Modern China and not still Maoist China. Maoist China is unequivocally not European style, and is one of the worst tragedies in all human history. Modern China has created wealth, people who can attend university, start businesses, etc. even if it has some issues as we perceive them in the West.

You are not addressing gp's points - that Maoist and "Modern China" are directly related and that "Modern China" is not "Euro style".

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#74

Post by parhurs »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #36
ue_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's incredibly Euro-centric to sit here and complain about the perceived child/human rights abuses that happen in China when those very exact things are what industrialized Europe. It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism, and then to say that these countries should be implementing it in such a way that there's the same…

>It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism Other countries like Soviet Union or Maoist China have tried other paths with not exactly stellar results.

It's not like there are no other paths, or that there even is one 'European path' for that matter. The Nordic countries took a very different path than UK did, for example.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#75

Post by parhurs »

inimino wrote: post #57
siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

You would not be allowed to build such products because of US labor laws. Other sovereign countries have their own laws which they enforce within their borders and then we engage in trade. Why is it that the US should be enforcing its domestic regulations on other countries with entirely different circumstances which we know little about?

The question wasn't about other countries, it was about the US, specifically regulating the sale of products 'not buildable' in the US. Stated another way, if something is only built to be sold, why is only building it regulated; why not regulate selling it aswell?

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#76

Post by berntb »

parhurs wrote: post #73
muninn_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did notice that they liberalized the Chinese economy, right? That's why it's Modern China and not still Maoist China. Maoist China is unequivocally not European style, and is one of the worst tragedies in all human history. Modern China has created wealth, people who can attend university, start businesses, etc. even if it has some issues as we perceive them in the West.

You are not addressing gp's points - that Maoist and "Modern China" are directly related and that "Modern China" is not "Euro style".

The Chinese industrialization and growth was mostly based on capitalism. Which is more of a Western economy than the Great Leap. Which was the point you comment on.

(At least, compared to the failure before, with just central planning.)

If you have anything contradicting that, it would be interesting?

(Edit: Ah, I commented on a karma 23 secondary account? :-) )

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#77

Post by berntb »

parhurs wrote: post #74
maverick_iceman wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism Other countries like Soviet Union or Maoist China have tried other paths with not exactly stellar results.

It's not like there are no other paths, or that there even is one 'European path' for that matter. The Nordic countries took a very different path than UK did, for example.

You are wrong about at least Sweden following a different path.

When Sweden had a high growth, the taxes were low and it was much more of a strict capitalist economy.

When the taxes were raised to be internationally high in the early 70s, the growth crashed and Sweden fell quite a few places in GNP/Capita.

(I am Swedish.)

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#78

Post by inimino »

parhurs wrote: post #75
inimino wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would not be allowed to build such products because of US labor laws. Other sovereign countries have their own laws which they enforce within their borders and then we engage in trade. Why is it that the US should be enforcing its domestic regulations on other countries with entirely different circumstances which we know little about?

The question wasn't about other countries, it was about the US, specifically regulating the sale of products 'not buildable' in the US. Stated another way, if something is only built to be sold, why is only building it regulated; why not regulate selling it aswell?

If it is built in the US, regulating the sale would be redundant, as manufacture would already be illegal, and more ethically made products don't look any different.

If you want, say, textile workers to have humane working conditions, you regulate the textile manufacturing industry, and you want enforcement officers in the garment district, not the retail district.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#79

Post by HillaryBriss »

simonh wrote: post #71
HillaryBriss wrote: post #29

> The well-choreographed customs routine is part of a hidden bounty of perks, tax breaks and subsidies in China that supports the world’s biggest iPhone factory, according to confidential government records reviewed by The New York Times, as well as more than 100 interviews with factory workers, logistics handlers, truck drivers, tax specialists and current and former Apple executives. The package of sweeteners and i…

I have a hard time understanding why (presumably?) a US citizen would be against foreign governments subsidizing US companies. Isn't that a good thing? After all this is a US company that employs hundreds of thousands of Americans and in 2015 paid $2.7bn in tax on it's global profits at an overall rate of about 25.5%, most of it in the US. http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/does-apple-pay-tax-h...

well it's an interesting point. i don't live in the USA of 1955.

in today's landscape, i don't know how to tell if Apple's location actually matters to me. what if Apple were headquartered in Finland, Japan or China? they don't pay my taxes. they don't employ me. they bring a lot of people from outside the US to do their work. they also outsource a ton of work to other countries.

why would I really care about Apple's location or country of incorporation? i bet people in Ireland care a lot more than i do.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#80

Post by simonh »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #79
simonh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time understanding why (presumably?) a US citizen would be against foreign governments subsidizing US companies. Isn't that a good thing? After all this is a US company that employs hundreds of thousands of Americans and in 2015 paid $2.7bn in tax on it's global profits at an overall rate of about 25.5%, most of it in the US. http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/does-apple-pay-tax-h...

well it's an interesting point. i don't live in the USA of 1955. in today's landscape, i don't know how to tell if Apple's location actually matters to me. what if Apple were headquartered in Finland, Japan or China? they don't pay my taxes. they don't employ me. they bring a lot of people from outside the US to do their work. they also outsource a ton of work to other countries. why would I really care about Apple's…

Ireland gets a fraction as much tax money from Apple compared to the US, which gets the lion's share. That's kind of the point - the US thinks they should be getting even more.

But I'm sure Irish taxpayers would welcome getting the $billion+ tax revenue currently going to fund the US government as well, if you really don't want it.

Post reply on HN