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From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

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Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#71

Post by 49531 »

> There are also a lot of developer bootcamps: within 8–12 weeks you can become a developer. I think this is great if you want to become a developer within a small agency or working in house. Those „fast tracks“ mainly teach you how to code, but not other important stuff like software engineering, algorithms and data structures, patterns, databases, theoretical stuff about computers and so on which you would need in bigger projects. Bigger companies mostly want you to have formal education. The same is true when you want to climb up the corporate ladder. Universities don’t really teach you how to code, but they teach you timeless things! I never regretted my hard way, because I learned so many different things.

While it's true that a lot of organizations still put a lot of value on a traditional education, the idea that going to a bootcamp qualifies you for work "within a small agency or working in house" just seems condescending. I work for a fortune 500 company and we hire bootcamp grads all the time, many of them have gone from apprentices to junior to mid level engineers in just a couple years, they're fucking fantastic.

I strongly feel that getting relevant applicable skills is essentially to starting a career in software engineering, and that more theoretical skills can then be acquired along the way. I've seen it several times.

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#72

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

jrm2k6 wrote: post #66
relics443 wrote: post #63

TL;DR there are a lot of incompetent developers out there. This isn't a comment about the author, as much as it's about something she said. "Today you can take a lot of programming and Computer Sciences courses online. Everyone can be developer! There are also a lot of developer bootcamps: within 8–12 weeks you can become a developer." This is a very dangerous line of thinking. Some people have convinced themselves t…

This is exactly how I reacted when reading that line. Everybody can become a developer, yes. Everybody can become a good developer quickly, most likely not, and that applies also to people coming out with a formal education in CS, not only bootcampers. I don't understand fully why so many people think that about coding, but not about other fields, like cooking/building/who knows.

Money.

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#73

Post by smileysteve »

jakobegger wrote: post #5

A bit of background: in Austria, many people do an "Apprenticeship" ("Lehre") instead of going to high school. You work at a company and visit a vocational school (about 20% of time). This is great for practical people -- less theory, more real world experience. But there is a major downside: If you didn't go to high school, you are not allowed to go to university without first completing preparatory courses that can…

I did an apprenticeship in high school, Georgia has an official program.

I got to leave school early, work the internship I had already found, develop professional skills, and get paid. The only requirements for the program (for school credit) were to log hours and write a few essays.

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#74

Post by denisenepraunig »

49531 wrote: post #71

> There are also a lot of developer bootcamps: within 8–12 weeks you can become a developer. I think this is great if you want to become a developer within a small agency or working in house. Those „fast tracks“ mainly teach you how to code, but not other important stuff like software engineering, algorithms and data structures, patterns, databases, theoretical stuff about computers and so on which you would need in…

That sounds fascistic! Do you mentor them? Or are pair programming and code reviews part of your company culture? I can only state my perception about required qualifications I saw in job postings; big companies: university, small companies: skill A, B, C.

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#75

Post by genieyclo »

denisenepraunig wrote: post #41
lacampbell wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's basically a glorified trade job and everyone already has the tools in front of them. That attitude certainly explains a fair few 'legacy' systems I've seen.

I heard about 10.000 lines of code in one function at a job interview. I did not accept that job offer and I am quite happy that I don't have to maintain this... This is a serious lack of craftsmanship! A little bit of Clean Code for every programmer please... But I am drifting a bit off topic now.

How is this possible...what language/framework/tool was this in or for?

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#76

Post by throwawasiudy »

relics443 wrote: post #63

TL;DR there are a lot of incompetent developers out there. This isn't a comment about the author, as much as it's about something she said. "Today you can take a lot of programming and Computer Sciences courses online. Everyone can be developer! There are also a lot of developer bootcamps: within 8–12 weeks you can become a developer." This is a very dangerous line of thinking. Some people have convinced themselves t…

Most, not all, but most of the good developers I've known learned to code when they were teens. CS skills have been discounted endlessly compared to other engineering professions solely because it doesn't cost anything to learn. Other forms of engineering cost a lot of money to learn beyond the knowledge required for the job.

That doesn't mean software dev is any easier. And, it's great that CS has such a low barrier to entry, and hopefully open source keeps it that way. Unfortunately the same trait makes it sound like "something anyone could do". Anyone hiring in the industry knows this is not the case.

The same trait results in 80% of those calling themselves "developers" being radically incompetent. It's one thing if you're electrical engineer that works daily in Cadence doing LVS and DRC, your license alone could cost 100k a year. Contrast that with someone who's git cloned react-starter and setup a website on AWS. The barrier to entry is so low for comp sci that credentials and accomplishments mean little, and interviews are absolutely brutal as a result.

So we get to where we are now. Interviews mean everything because degrees, references, and personal accomplishments mean so little in CS. The interview is your gateway rather than a solid degree program for other engineers.

How do we fix it? Making programming less accessible is obviously not the right way. We need a solid accreditation program like longer established professions have. CS is very new relatively (the first programmers are largely still alive, which is astounding). God help you if you go to an unaccredited electrical or mechanical engineering program, but the large majority of CS programs aren't accredited at all. Employers need to know which schools are good beyond the top 20 so they can hire effectively, and engineers need to know the same to decide which program they want to attend.

It's going to be a vicious cycle until that happens. Endless "CS programs" that don't teach you anything. Borderline scam bootcamps (some are good, but who?). Shaky employers grilling the hell out of anyone that comes through the doors. It's going to suck for everyone in the space until we have some formal definition of someone thats been properly trained. Take the bar exam for instance; In most states you can take it without any schooling, but only those truly knowledgeable will pass.

Someone that passed the bar? A lawyer. Passed your boards? A doctor. Passed CS degree program at school X? Who knows.

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#77

Post by stale2002 »

throwawasiudy wrote: post #76
relics443 wrote: post #63

TL;DR there are a lot of incompetent developers out there. This isn't a comment about the author, as much as it's about something she said. "Today you can take a lot of programming and Computer Sciences courses online. Everyone can be developer! There are also a lot of developer bootcamps: within 8–12 weeks you can become a developer." This is a very dangerous line of thinking. Some people have convinced themselves t…

Most, not all, but most of the good developers I've known learned to code when they were teens. CS skills have been discounted endlessly compared to other engineering professions solely because it doesn't cost anything to learn. Other forms of engineering cost a lot of money to learn beyond the knowledge required for the job. That doesn't mean software dev is any easier. And, it's great that CS has such a low barrier…

The unfortunate thing about what you are saying is that a CS bar exam, or certificate, wouldn't "prove" that you have any worthwhile skills.

CS degrees are math degrees. They don't address the needs of the millions of Web Dev jobs out there.

I am not a computer scientist. I am a web developer and proud.

And any web developer accreditation program needs to address the needs of web development and NOT address the needs of computer science.

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#78

Post by nerdponx »

gvd wrote: post #23
jakobegger wrote: post #5

A bit of background: in Austria, many people do an "Apprenticeship" ("Lehre") instead of going to high school. You work at a company and visit a vocational school (about 20% of time). This is great for practical people -- less theory, more real world experience. But there is a major downside: If you didn't go to high school, you are not allowed to go to university without first completing preparatory courses that can…

Same in the Netherlands. It's changing, but when I went to "high school" (age of ~12) you could go to a vocational school to become e.g. carpenter, electrician, etc. When you are 16 you are set to get into that profession. You will still attend school until 18, 1 day a week. You can also level up and go to a higher level vocational school all the way up to university.

Changing how? And why?

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#79

Post by shas3 »

relics443 wrote: post #63

TL;DR there are a lot of incompetent developers out there. This isn't a comment about the author, as much as it's about something she said. "Today you can take a lot of programming and Computer Sciences courses online. Everyone can be developer! There are also a lot of developer bootcamps: within 8–12 weeks you can become a developer." This is a very dangerous line of thinking. Some people have convinced themselves t…

I am honestly shocked by the "today" in "today you can take..." I grew up in India. In the 1990s a very common career path for people who didn't major in CS/EE/math/etc. was to attend non-university training in computers and programming. There were these institutes in every neighborhood and I recall at least half a dozen national-chains who'd advertise regularly in the newspapers, etc. There's at least one publicly traded company, NIIT that has been doing this for 30 years now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIIT

I don't know if it was substantially different in the US.

Re: From Secretary to Software Developer: The Hard Way

#80

Post by throwawasiudy »

stale2002 wrote: post #77
throwawasiudy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most, not all, but most of the good developers I've known learned to code when they were teens. CS skills have been discounted endlessly compared to other engineering professions solely because it doesn't cost anything to learn. Other forms of engineering cost a lot of money to learn beyond the knowledge required for the job. That doesn't mean software dev is any easier. And, it's great that CS has such a low barrier…

The unfortunate thing about what you are saying is that a CS bar exam, or certificate, wouldn't "prove" that you have any worthwhile skills. CS degrees are math degrees. They don't address the needs of the millions of Web Dev jobs out there. I am not a computer scientist. I am a web developer and proud. And any web developer accreditation program needs to address the needs of web development and NOT address the needs…

it's a big field, but so is electrical/mechanical/structural/civil engineering.

I think they'res enough basic skills in common with different flavors of development that there could be a common set of core skills and concentrations or special accreditation for the unusual stuff

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