How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup • Hacker News Board

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#71

Post by jakewins » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

rlonstein wrote: post #64

rmah wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is a different situation. There is very little arable farmland left underutilized in Japan. There are millions of acres of farmland sitting dormant in the USA.

> There are millions of acres of farmland sitting dormant in the USA. However in the higher energy cost future the production, processing, and distribution of that farm product to a far away base of consumers is not viable. The various direct and indirect subsidies and availability of relatively cheap fuel, which is itself subsidized, make it possible to get fresh foods to urban consumers. It seems like a smart play…

> distribution of that farm product to a far away base of consumers is not viable

Can you source this? My understanding of academic research in this area was that the energy used for artificial lighting by far outweighs the energy used for production and transportation for conventional produce.

Eg: If you're interested in climate impact or energy use, warehouse farms burn significantly more coal to keep the lights on, and the divide can be expected to expand as LED efficiency is already extremely high, while there are gains every year in lowering the energy usage in transportation.

Cornell Dept. of Horticulture has a good video on this here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrpyUA1pQqE

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#72

Post by jakewins » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

avn2109 wrote: post #28

Animats wrote: post #27

The startup mentioned is an urban indoor farm for lettuce. As a manufacturing process, it's a good case. One product. Few changes. No need to retool for the 2017 Lettuce. Few operations. (In a manufacturing plant, an "operation" is one step in the process.) This is the best case for classic mechanization. You just need to do the same thing over and over while holding the process parameters within tolerance, and do it…

>> "...No need to retool for the 2017 Lettuce." These indoor farm outfits have nothing to do with lettuce. There's a reason they're building them in/around NYC, aka in the densest concentration of pot smokers the world has ever seen, far from Humboldt county's fields and Colorado's manual hydroponics. The business model is just to get the automation figured out with some low-value crop, e.g. salad greens, while waiti…

Lettuce production seems to have very little overlap with growing weed: Lettuce grows to a few inches, racks tooled to the height of lettuce wouldn't fit hemp. Hemp has big root systems, it won't grow in tiny little cup mediums like lettuce will, it needs lots of space, mandating a different hydroponic approach than lettuce does.

Tomatoes, specifically determinate tomatoes, expect almost the same nutrient mix as hemp, has the same size root systems and grows to about the same height. Harvesting is also similar.

Hence: If they were planning to retool for weed, why are they building manufacturing capability for a completely different kind of production?

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#73

Post by marcosdumay » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #4

"Figure out software after everything else" I also work at a manufacturing startup ( https://markforged.com ) and I disagree. Manufacturing is ancient. Software as a field has been around for 45 years (give or take). If you're not working at a pure software company, the software for your particular field is probably in its infancy. If you're looking to innovate, it is orders of magnitude more fruitful to look to the…

Well, you are arguing for being as much as a software company as possible, by choosing the right problems will minimize risk. I don't think anybody disagrees.

But once you've decided you must customize some hardware (or even distribute it), the article is claiming that the software is the last thing on your entire solution that you should work on. You should get everything else right first.

I don't think those contradict each other.

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#74

Post by thebiglebrewski » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

avn2109 wrote: post #28

Animats wrote: post #27

The startup mentioned is an urban indoor farm for lettuce. As a manufacturing process, it's a good case. One product. Few changes. No need to retool for the 2017 Lettuce. Few operations. (In a manufacturing plant, an "operation" is one step in the process.) This is the best case for classic mechanization. You just need to do the same thing over and over while holding the process parameters within tolerance, and do it…

>> "...No need to retool for the 2017 Lettuce." These indoor farm outfits have nothing to do with lettuce. There's a reason they're building them in/around NYC, aka in the densest concentration of pot smokers the world has ever seen, far from Humboldt county's fields and Colorado's manual hydroponics. The business model is just to get the automation figured out with some low-value crop, e.g. salad greens, while waiti…

The devil's lettuce!

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#75

Post by SixSigma » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 3:40 PM UTC

m_eiman wrote: post #48

Strangework wrote: post #26

So wild! Such a surprise to find this on the front page of Hacker News. If it weren't for the author's username, I might have missed this gem. I had worked at Edenworks as a software engineer for a few years, alongside Johnny. I don't pretend to know enough to speak on manufacturing itself, but Johnny's remarks on software development are spot-on. When I had come onboard, I had naively suspected a typical software st…

When the main product being developed is a tangible system, redos are way more costly. Even when primarily doing software, this can come into play. I know of a customer who had about 5000 card readers in an access control system, where bugs in the card reader firmware required a firmware update. Doing this required walking to a reader, unmounting it from the wall, updating the firmware, re-mounting the reader. Rinse…

> Lesson learned: always make secure remote firmware updates possible on your devices.

Lesson apparently not learned: get it right first time.

Software isn't special

http://www.gettingitrightfirsttime.com/report/

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#76

Post by SixSigma » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 3:53 PM UTC

avn2109 wrote: post #28

Animats wrote: post #27

The startup mentioned is an urban indoor farm for lettuce. As a manufacturing process, it's a good case. One product. Few changes. No need to retool for the 2017 Lettuce. Few operations. (In a manufacturing plant, an "operation" is one step in the process.) This is the best case for classic mechanization. You just need to do the same thing over and over while holding the process parameters within tolerance, and do it…

>> "...No need to retool for the 2017 Lettuce." These indoor farm outfits have nothing to do with lettuce. There's a reason they're building them in/around NYC, aka in the densest concentration of pot smokers the world has ever seen, far from Humboldt county's fields and Colorado's manual hydroponics. The business model is just to get the automation figured out with some low-value crop, e.g. salad greens, while waiti…

leans into mic .... wrong

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#77

Post by Dayshine » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

SixSigma wrote: post #75

m_eiman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the main product being developed is a tangible system, redos are way more costly. Even when primarily doing software, this can come into play. I know of a customer who had about 5000 card readers in an access control system, where bugs in the card reader firmware required a firmware update. Doing this required walking to a reader, unmounting it from the wall, updating the firmware, re-mounting the reader. Rinse…

> Lesson learned: always make secure remote firmware updates possible on your devices. Lesson apparently not learned: get it right first time. Software isn't special http://www.gettingitrightfirsttime.com/report/

Er, but the case study you linked is very different.

There they're talking about getting specific tailored treatment right the first time.

Here we're talking about getting a generic reusable component right the first time.

Which is exactly what that link advocates against...

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#78

Post by avn2109 » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #61

Animats wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've wondered about all the interest in lettuce and kale. I'd expect more interest in growing higher-value seasonal crops such as blueberries or strawberries.

Lettuce can be grown at full blast and harvested in a month. For seasonal fruits there has to either be a way to trick the plant into skipping the dormant period or a dormant period. The marijuana thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me, it's not fragile and has relatively high value compared to the cost of shipping.

It won't be legal in all the states between NY and wherever you grow it. And transporting it across state lines opens you up to interdiction/legal trouble from the Feds. That's why they have to grow it near the consumers.

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#79

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 4:31 PM UTC

j2bax wrote: post #58

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #57

I wish HN wouldn't use this language in its headlines. It means I can't read it when my little kids are nearby.

You could use an extension that swaps out swear words for alternatives like "fudge". One of my coworkers used one.

Thanks, that's great idea. Will check it out.

Re: How to not fuck up your manufacturing startup

#80

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 4:35 PM UTC

LeanderK wrote: post #63

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #57

I wish HN wouldn't use this language in its headlines. It means I can't read it when my little kids are nearby.

you could raise them to deal with this kind of language from day 1, we do this in germany and it works out fine. Swearing is just an rhetorical device that's appropriate in some situations and not appropriate in others, like calling somebody by their last vs by their first name. I have never understood the americans obsession with swearing (I am just guessing, sry if your not an american).

Thanks for the idea. I've considered it.

Unfortunately, some of my kids have a propensity for repeating what they read/hear, without consideration for our rules regarding coarse language. So it wouldn't work well in my case.

As far as it being "just a[n] rhetorical device", I think we probably have difference in values, which I don't think can be fruitfully discussed in this forum.